"You will be objects of hatred "a reasonable understanding

by luap 56 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  DesirousOfChange

  luap: 2. Were to Preach the " good news of the Kingdom"and "seek first the kingdom"

  Luap, by your standards, most JWs I know fall far short of qualifying.

  Let's face it, there may be a couple of old diehard pioneer widowed sisters out there hammering on doors or working the bus stops, but the rest of the Congo is spending more time at the mall and at Starbucks than doing any serious preaching. The Elders in the several Congos I attended were putting in the token service hours (they only worked with their "family") and going thru the motions. Everyone has gotten "serious" about Family Worship Night so they can count 4 hours each month.

  If the preaching of the Good News is truly getting accomplished, then why are the JWs only successful at convincing 1/10th of 1% of humankind on earth. Jehovah needs a better Public Relations Dept than what JWs are providing! Why, for the first time ever at a recent Cir Assm in our area, NO ONE got baptized -- NO ONE. Not even some 9 year old kid. You and I both know they're dunking the born-in kids younger and younger to keep the numbers up. Look at ANY Cir Assm -- 9 out of 10 baptismal candidates are children -- born-ins. ONLY foriegn language Congos are having any success in Bible Students who progress to baptism. WHY? The preaching is ineffective. Knocking on doors when NO ONE IS AT HOME is just going thru the motions. It's just busy-work.

  SEEKING THE KINGDOM FIRST?

  I know of many (older) couples who decided not to have children because of THE END being SO CLOSE. (In fact, one was ostracized in the 1940s if they got pregnant and had children!) Those couples are mostly dead. Certainly very OLD and could use the assistance of adult children. A young couple in our hall (YOUNG Elder and his wife) asked several older couples (who had no children) what they thought about postponing having children. I don't know what they heard from each elderly, childless couple, but I can tell you the young Elder and his wife have a new baby girl!! No putting off having a family for fear of the pregnant or nursing mother!

  Let's face it. NO ONE (among JWs) really believes ARMAGEDDON is right around the corner. If YOU do, then I suspect YOU ARE ELDERLY and fearful of dying BEFORE Armageddon comes and "saves your life" (as you survive as one of the Great Crowd of survivors). I say no one really believes because of their actions! Everyone in our local Congos are building homes (until the market sank), having children, going on extragant vacations -- some 2 or 3 or 4 times every year! (I think of one family who have taken over 30 vacations to foriegn destinations in the past 10 years. Do you think they could retire and pioneer?)

  Luap, I think you are probably gone already. Run off with your tail between your legs because of the challenging posts here already, and frankly that is a GOOD THING, because you aint got what it takes to stand up to this crowd. They'll beat your @$$ into the ground using ONLY the WTS publications. You ain't got a chance of winning an argument discussion here, because these folks have already done more research into JW Doctrine than you can catch up on in your lifetime. Many here won't be kind to you, so it's better that you've gone on to more hospitable environments. You didn't sound fierce enough, determined enough, knowledgeable enough, or tough enough to stick it out here!

  Good Luck, Luap!

  DOC
• 

  Larsinger58

  Hi luap. Nice article.

  Ummmmm, at a lost to do anything else and out of respect for your interpretation, and just to be brief for a change, I'm just going to tell you how I interpret this specific passage.

  Since "and then the end will come" follows after this, I believe this is primarily fulfilled by the Jews. That is, Christ was saying the Jews would be hated in all the nations and following that, the "end" would come. Here, the "end of the system of things" in a Jew's mind would be domination by gentiles and exile. On November 30, 1947 the "end of the system of things" of exile and gentile domination ended. Prior to this, antisemitism lead to the Holocaust. It has been historically noted and even I believe stated by Hitler himself that if the Jews were not generally hated by so many, what he did wouldn't have been so easy.

  But JWs, as well, were a target of "Gog of Magog" and experienced the Christian side of the "grea tribulation." So I will note in passing that all this "hatred" came to a head during WWII just before the "end of the gentile times" occurred in 1947 and that's the specific fulfillment of that. JWs along with the Jews were specific targets the the Nazis who fulfill being "Gog of Magog" (i.e. white descendants of Magog who focus on idolizing their whiteness).

  So the Jews are the primary fulfillment of this.

  The other thing is the historical context. Surely as the Christian faith grew and grew in the early times in the 1st and 2nd Century, Christians were indeed the object of hatred and blamed for things they didn't do, like burning Rome, etc. We all know about Christians dying in the arena by lions. So that is fulfilled.

  That brings up whether or not JWs are a primary target of hatred now in fulfillment of that prpohecy. If some debate they really are not hated, but as Mrs. Jones said, just ignored or tolerated, then it would not mean the prophecy did not go unfulfilled, which I believe the primary fulfillment was pre "end of the system of things", that is, pre-1947. That's the context here, the hatred toward Jews and JWs in the time period say from 1914-1947.

  That's all I'll offer. I just wanted to share where I'm at as far as including the Jews in this fulfillment, who I consider primary for this reference.

  Christians were certainly hated by pagan nations up until the time of Constantine when he corrupted pure worship with paganism at which point, Christianity became the national religion and thus became very popular. After this, a turn of the table occurred and Christians became the terrorists in the world, burning people at the stake and gaining secular power and riches in the world (i.e. Crusades, etc.) So, it's a technical point if Christians are "hated" post Constantine times. But is that hate justified? Any who were targets of the Crusades would be justified in hating Christianity, I would think.

  Certainly JWs are persecuted and banned in some countries. Even the WTS president and others were jailed for a while. That's hatred. But JF Rutherford put out the "7th volume" which had some strong pro-German political claimes. That's why they were thrown in jail. They later removed those pages from that abominable book. By the time of JF Rutherford, the WTS was nearly completely corrupted. Even Germany persecuted and locked up the JWs, not because of being Christian, but because they were thought to be spies of the Jewish underground. And why was that? Well when Russell first started out, he did not collect any donations. Why? Because of wealthy backing. But where did this wealthy backing come from? From the "Illuminati Jews" in B'nai B'rith. Thus the Jews chose CT Russell to promote "Zionism" and paid him generously to do so. So why shouldn't Hitler suspect JWs for being a cover organization for underground Jewish Illuminati?

  So that's the other issue I would raise. Was the persecution of the WTS warranted?

  The Bible clearly notes at 2 Thess. 4:2 that the "man of lawlessness" would rise up in Jehovah's own temple, his own organization, and lord himself other other "gods." The gods or "glorious ones" are the public anointed ones within the WTS. So this is a total catch-22. If JWs want to claim they are "Jehovah's chosen organization", which they are from 1886-1996, then the have to face the reality that the MOL ends up in charge of that organization just before Armageddon, meaning the GB of JWs would become apostate.

  So there's the issue of whether or not Jesus Christ at ths point, especially post 1996 when the covenants with the Jews and JWs officially ends, is still considering them his own people. Or has Christ taken out the true "little flock" and abandoned the organization as prophesied?

  So again, my view is that the prophecy was critically fulfilled from 1914-1947, and primarily by the Jews and tokenly by JWs, climazing in both being targets of the Nazis in WWII.

  The command: "Get out of her MY PEOPLE" confirms that near the end the WTS would be part of BTG. One travels down the broad road for the majority of the journey, but then at one point, you must leave the broad road and go down the narrow path. This is where the "wise virgins" separate from the "foolish virgins."

  So post 1996, neither JWs nor the Jews are considered his "holy people." Now the "144,000" that is the actual sealed elect are the temple now. Everything foreshadowed this, when Christ would return and install them in the kingdom, once he became king.

  So if they are objects of "hatred" by anyone, it likely due to their lawless ways. I know a lot of people hate them because of the blood issue! A false premise. I know a lot of hatred comes to them because of the shunning issue, because it breaks up families. Another false premise. I know there is a lot of resentment because of the false prophecies and their discouraging college education. But this is hatred from XJWs primarily.

  So sorry! I think I'm mentally incapable of writing a short post. I'm ending this now. I think my general position and thoughts were covered.

  Thanks for the article! And don't let anyone call you a "troll" or put you down. You're entitled to your own views without all this pontificating by disgruntled and neurotic XJWs!!! Express your views and have conviction for them. Don't let the dogmatic rudeness of some here discourage you.

  Have a great day.

  LS
• 

  N.drew

  just to be brief for a change,

  I think I'm mentally incapable of writing a short post.
• 

  dgp

  Luap, I think that the number of worldlies who really know what the Watchtower is like can be counted with the fingers of one hand. And I wouldn't say people hate them. People are busy, or relaxing when they knock on the door, and everybody knows they leave after they sell you a magazine. The magazine itself seems entertaining sometimes, kind of unctuous, but you know it's just not true, so down it goes to the garbage bin.
• 

  N.drew

  Me too!

  So....once the curser is in the box, does it stay there?

  unctuous Good word! I like it and it describes the magazines extremely well!
• 

  Listener

  Just consider what you are writing, are they your thoughts or the thoughts of the GB? As an example, why do you believe that the JWs are not part of Christendom? Basically because the JW says so and their meaning of Christendom is very different to the dictionary meaning. If they are going to twist such a simple word to mean something completely different to what it really means, how can they be trusted to believe anything? Could you please explain to me what Christendom is?

  JWs are not the only ones that believe in God's Kingdom, that is a lie.

  As for preaching, there is nothing in the bible that says a christian must go from door to door. There are many christians that are doing a fine job of preaching both by talking to others and more importantly, by endeavouring to live their lives in accordance with God's will. Counting hours for 'field work' is a very strange requirement and goes beyond any bible instruction.

  Regading hatred, I see very few posters on this forum who hate JWs, there are many who hate the actions of the GB but where is the persecution?
• 

  Celestial

  diamondiiz said;

  "These programmed ones also too stupid to realize that people dislike the twisted, lying deceptive organization and not general JWs! But if we must speak of these lovely people in general, why is there so many problems with depression, suicide, child abuse and others hidden crimes all within the congregations? Very lovely world they would create, I would propose taking all these people and placing them on the island all on their own and see how long they would survive without everything the hard working society provides for these people who are leeches on the system."

  I'm one of Jehovah's Witnesses that has suffered a loss of spirituality. I'm not “suicidal” but I'm currently inactive and somewhat depressed. I started participating on this forum because it looked interesting, but some of the things I've read ranging from mockery and ridicule to shock treatment is false and/or contains some holes, is contradictory or is unsubstantiated. Some of the information is somewhat interesting provided you isolate the duplicity.

  False:

  "see how long they would survive without everything the hard working society provides for these people who are leeches on the system"

  I've come across an occasional congregation member that was a mooch (they're flagged and avoided), but I've always known congregation members to be hard working and self-sufficient.
  
  Contradictory:
  
  You stated;
  
  “problems with depression, suicide, child abuse and others hidden crimes all within the congregations”
  
  The problem of crime within the congregation, hidden or exposed substantiates the disfellowshipping arrangement although this thread depicts the disfellowshipping arrangement as a precursor to suicide:
  
  http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/scandals/221220/1/Suicide-How-many-do-you-know-within-the-JWs
  
  Mockery and ridicule:
  
  http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/beliefs/221710/1/I-cant-believe-it-but-a-kid-got-marked-for-having-worldy-friends
  
  I was raised as one of Jehovah's Witnesses and I'm 38. In that time frame, I've never heard of something this absurd from the podium at a Kingdom Hall so I questioned it. I asked the author of the opening post what congregation this took place in. He or she would not say.
  
  In this thread...
  
  http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/221690/1/Social-networks-a-huge-no-from-the-service-meetings
  
  ...the only individuals that can listen to the meetings using telecommunications are those that have some sort of physical condition that prevents them from attending. The elders don't “block” anyone indisposed from listening in.
  
  Unsubstantiated shock advertising:
  
  http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/child-abuse/221719/1/Read-a-story-of-child-neglect-and-abuse-among-JWs-in-S-Africa-that-was-sent-to-me
  
  This type of propaganda may poison the minds of those that respond to this information by absorbing messages quickly and accepting them without questioning or analyzing them. I may be inactive as a JW, but I don't stand by propaganda that promotes hatred for ethnic or religious minorities.
• 

  Listener

  Celestial, I can appreciate your annoyance with some of the comments on this forum and you will notice that there are many others that are too. Often unsubstantiated claims are questioned which is refreshing. There is nothing stopping you from expressing your opinion in those threads and as long as you are reasonable and put forth a realistic response they are always appreciated.

  I guess it is a matter of understanding what the motive is behind a post being made. Being a JW has impacted on many people in a very negative way, on this forum you often see the aftermath of that.

  It is often very hard to understand what someone is really saying or at times can expose behaviour that is really not acceptable. You have done this yourself, take these comments of yours, for instance -

  I've come across an occasional congregation member that was a mooch (they're flagged and avoided), but I've always known congregation members to be hard working and self-sufficient.

  Is that really proper christian behaviour to 'flag and avoid' someone within your own family-like congregation just because they have a habit of trying to 'mooch' on other member? These are members that need a lot of encouragement and direction to help them stand on their own two feet, they can be included as ones needing a lot of help rather than the opposite.

  The problem of crime within the congregation, hidden or exposed substantiates the disfellowshipping arrangement although this thread depicts the disfellowshipping arrangement as a precursor to suicide

  This comment is not very clear. If a crime is hidden then there can be no disfellowshipping.

  The disfellowshipping arrangement includes being cut off from not only friends, but also family. The punishment is also given to individuals, at times, that a truelly repentant but because it is not apparent to the elders or for other reasons (such as an extended period of sinning) they are still punished. Not only that and just these things can be horrendous but they are treated as if they have been cut off from God himself and cannot possibly return to having a good relationship with him until they meet the strict rules and works that the elders stipulate, even though most of that is supported in the bible. If you don't think this can lead someone to suicide then that is a very strange opinion.

  You may be right in that a person committing a crime should be disfellowshipped but you go further in saying that it substantiates the disfellowshipping arrangement. It certainly does not as the some of these 'crimes' my be quite minor or not supported biblically. The 'arrangement' can also result in punishment that in no way befits the offence.

  You are always going to find some posts that exagerate things or are straight out lies and therefore it is always good to keep a balanced view. Personally I find this forum has given me the opportunity of understanding, to a far greater degree, what the bible really teaches.

  I am sorry to hear of your depression and hope that you can work through it.
• 

  N.drew

  This type of propaganda may poison the minds of those that respond to this information by absorbing messages quickly and accepting them without questioning or analyzing them. I may be inactive as a JW, but I don't stand by propaganda that promotes hatred for ethnic or religious minorities.

  Celestial, I have come to my own conclusion that it pains God to know one person who has put faith in Christ suffers harm caused by someone else who claims to be doing the will of God. Do you understand? Indeed we all cause distress, more or less, occasionally but a good person acknowledges it and makes amends. The Society is not like that.

  When the Watchtower falters they blame God. Many here on JWN have found a satisfying relationship with God who is Spirit. The Governing Body of JWs say it is not possible to have a relationship with God without them and what they teach. Do you believe that?

  They believe they offer an acceptable "gift at the altar" to Jehovah. But the scripture says that if then you remember your brother has something against you, go make peace.

  So, have they? Are they really keeping up with the celestial chariot? When they teach error and someone leaves because of error, why do they not "go make peace"?

  Have you seen the evidence that the society has promoted hate? When they disfellowship someone for refusing to put the governing body in the place of Jesus Christ is that not hating a religious minority?

  There are many good people in the organization. Many people suffer to stay because of them. But should we condone lying for a few good people? There are six billion people who according to the Watchtower are marked for dying. Do you believe we should ignore that because it is upsetting to some good people?

  The Word says stop calling bad good. Bad is bad.
• 

  diamondiiz

  Celestial:

  Maybe I should have expressed that paragraph differently. I didn't mean that JWs act as leeches on a personal level but rather that watchtower strongly discourages higher education and what it creates is a people with mostly manual skills. You have very few JW kids who actually go and get degrees in something that is useful to the society on a higher level. There is no jw contribution to fields in healthcare, or law and order. You don't see scientists or astronomers nor do you see archaeologists. As a world in general we need various field to build a society stronger and majority of religions don't have a problem having their kids reach for these goals and contribute to the humanity in general as we all greatly benefit from the contribution and accomplishments of others. Thanks to wts, as a JW society on it's own, would not thrive. Lack of knowledge in many essential fields would deteriorate JWs as a group if they were separated from the rest of the population. And in that respect wts creates a society dependent on the rest of the people while contributing nothing in return. In that respect if you needed a doctor, you would have hell of a time finding a JW who could help you and if you did, the chances are high that the JW was a doctor prior to becoming a JW and not after or during. If you're depressed due to chemical imbalance, you would be out of lack, after all what are the chances of a JW being able to create medicine to help you out in that area. I think you get my point now what I meant by the above.

  Disfellowshipping arrangement only works if you have two witnesses or a confession (generally speaking). Elders have no knowledge, experience or capabilities to investigate crimes and base their decisions on simplistic ideology. Again, as a isolated society, what are the chances of a criminal getting away with murder in JW world? Very high wouldn't you say? Thanks to the outside world criminals have better chance of being caught than if they were in isolated jw society. There is no contradiction to what I wrote above.

  I cannot comment on all the links you included or the specific replies, but the one speaking of a link between disfellowshiping and suicide is valid. Many believing witnesses who get disfellowshipped have hard time adjusting to a life where family and friends shun them. It may take people a long time to get reinstated and many feel overwhelming guilt that they've done something horrible against God that makes them deserving death. While it might be a minority that take their own lives, it's the disfellowshipping arrangement that is responsible for these deaths and not a simple depression. Again, many posts are in general terms and may need to be expounded upon so maybe ask for further explanation.

  Again, this is an open, almost unrestricted forum so anything and everything gets posted. Don't take everything so personally just because you feel you as a JW with a loss of spirituality. Many of us have been where you are now and many of us are at different levels of getting over our past. The beauty of an open forum is, you can question whatever, you don't have to agree with everything others say but you have a venue to express yourself in any way you wish and back up what you believe if you desire to do so. You wouldn't get this openness in the kingdom hall. Take away what you want from here and ignore what you feel is nonsense. Identifying yourself as a spiritually weak JW tells me you needs to research more, and not always take everything so personally. We all were there, shit, I was duped and screwed up my youth because of it and trying to get some education at my age isn't something I ever thought I would be doing - especially in this system of things ;) After all when I fell for the carrot I was too young and too stupid to see through the lies and deception since why would I have doubted God's Org. in checking their history and there source references - when I could have simply relied on present publications and the words of trusting JWs. Stupid me!!!

  By the way, Morbid Tales is one good album, CF has always been my favorite band except during the wts years. Take care.