@Chariklo:
If I have understood you right, in what you've written immediately above ...no guarantee that I have, you kind of went on a bit....you are saying BOTH that you are an active JW in good standing in your locality AND that you reserve to yourself the right, as a Christian with a free conscience, to be posting on JWN. Do I have you right so far?
Correct, this is what I have said, this is exactly what I have been contending here.
Equating that with talks I've heard from the DO at the 2 day assembly and before that from a Bethel speaker at the 3 day convention poses a conundrum. The GB have said explicitly and categorically that apostate sites such as this one should absolutely not be visited by any one of Jehovah's Witnesses. Further, the elder who at the time was instructing me in study told me that anyone coming even here silently, never mind posting here, had deliberately chosen to "turn their back on Jehovah and to disobey his direct instructions", the logic of that being that the Governing Body was the means by which Jehovah made his wishes known on earth now.
That's what I remember and wrote down as accurately as possible from speakers, and what was imprinted on me by the elder here.
Uh-huh. I'm sure you did the best you could. And...?
Here's my problem. Given that the most authoritative statements have been made by representatives of the Governing Body explicitly condemning even visiting this site, let alone posting, and absolutely forbidding all Jehovah's Witnesses to come here....yet you say you are an active Jehovah's Witness...and you see yourself as free to choose whether to come here or not....two such absolute premises, one of utter prohibition requiring total obedience, one insisting on personal freedom of action based on freedom of conscience...how can you, indeed anyone, subscribe to the one without refusing to believe and observe the other?
I'm sorry: Who exactly are these "representatives of the Governing Body" of whom you speak that you heard at circuit and district assemblies say, "as accurately as possible from [these] speakers" as you could write down, "explicitly and categorically that apostate sites such as this one should absolutely not be visited by any one of Jehovah's Witnesses"? I know of no such "representatives of the Governing Body." Should I deliver a part at a district convention, I am transformed into a representative of the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses, correct? Tell me what am I when I come down from the podium? Do I then lose my transformed status? Did you not appreciate that what you were hearing weren't rules, but admonitions designed to safeguard our faith, suggestions?
Please tell me that when you heard a speaker on the stage say "whole blood components are 'out,' but blood fractions derived from these blood components are 'in,'" that you didn't conclude that it would be ok for you -- meaning you personally -- to accept blood fractions if such were recommended for treating some malady or disease. Let's just say, arguendo, that you are still that Witness, who diligently writes down the things you hear at assemblies and at conventions of Jehovah's Witnesses, and you concluded based upon what you heard that it would be perfectly ok for you to accept blood fractions and your hearing this said makes it perfectly ok for you to accept blood fractions. I'm going to digress now.
Then why shouldn't you go on and have a baby through in vitro fertilization, for as long as this artificial insemination involves the sperm of your husband and the ovum from you, then it's perfectly ok for you do conceive a child in this way. Forget about coitus. That's too iffy anyway. Forget about whether it makes sense in your life for you to be having another child if you already feel the one(s) you have is sufficient. It say s right there in a "Questions from Readers" article in black and white, one that appeared in the Watchtower awhile back, that as long as the procedure involves both you and your own husband, you can do it.
What you might think about the idea of getting pregnant through artificial insemination if you don't need or don't want to do this doesn't matter. What matters is that the Watchtower said it was ok and you also heard one of the speakers at a convention you attended say it's ok for you to get pregnant through such a procedure. Would you do this or would you not have taken a hard look at your life and your circumstances, and made a determination as to whether or not it made any sense for you to be having such a procedure?
I recall that there were those during the late 60s and early 70s that had "decided" based on something they heard one or more of the speakers at their Kingdom Hall say that they would forego the expense of giving one or more of their children a college education, or who withdrew their own plans to go to college, and all because it was imagined that the end of this system of things was going to arrive in 1975. Never mind what the Bible says at Matthew 24:36 as to no one knowing "that day and hour," not even Jesus knew at the time he said these words. Why the masthead of the Awake! magazine at the time, which appeared until November 8, 1995, read:
"Most important, this magazine builds confidence in the Creator's promise of a peaceful and secure new world before the generation that saw the events of 1914 passes away."
We have here a "He has blasphemed. What further need do we have for witnesses" moment. In those days people were running up their credit cards and piling up debt as if they knew something that no one else knew. I recall approaching Charles Sinutko at the time about the 1975 fervor that existed and we discussed how his remarks might be construed by some in our district to mean more than they actually did, but the point I'm making here is that we are just men doing the best we can with many of our imperfections perfectly intact. Expecting perfection from an elder is always going to lead to disappointment.
I remember promising to take a few kids to Coney Island on a Saturday, except it rained. Kids don't want to accept that sometimes adults say things as if we had consulted the meteorologist god before saying them, but eventually we learned how to say to children, "if nothing happens." Remembering to use these three words kept us from appearing so, er, "imperfect." But these three words don't work with adults that believe what they want to believe and are so much more pliable than a child. At least a child will say, "Well, let me ask my mother (or father)."
I had made a $10 bet at 3-1 odds for the Reds against my aunt during the World Series back on the East Coast in October of 1975, because I had not heard a thing from the UN about any declaration of "peace of security," so my reasoning was that without a great tribulation there could be no Armageddon and not only was I right, but my aunt had the Red Sox, which made her duty-bound to fork over $30 to her nephew or I was going to report her to her husband, who was one of my favorite uncles.
My point here is not about blood fractions, not about in vitro fertilizations, not about the World Series, not about 1975 frenzy. My point here is that ignorance abounds in the world and Jehovah God knows this well. Just as there are those inside God's organization that cannot properly process the information they read or hear from the platform or at an assembly because they are illiterate and too ignorant to process what things they read and hear properly, and just as there are those outside God's organization that would vote during the Republican primary for Sen. Rick Santorum, knowing that he would strip away a woman's right to take birth control pills for non-contraceptive purposes just because there are some women take birth control pills for contraceptive purposes because they are illiterate and too ignorant to process what things they read and hear properly. (BTW, I don't have an opinion one way or the other on Santorum, but I'm merely making an observation here about the ignorance of people).
Cognitive dissonance sets in.
How so? Do you even know what cognitive dissonance means or are you perhaps using this oft-overused phrase because you think it resonates with many of the other folks here on JWN that use it? I know what it is, because I read a book that dealt with the topic at length, but I'd doubt that many of the people on here have read a book, because it is sufficient on here to parrot others that never read a book on the topic either. What do you say is "cognitive dissonance"? Not what some book says it is, but I'm interested in knowing what you think it to be in your own words. Most people cannot do this or cite examples of cognitive dissonance at work, but maybe you're different, @Chariklo. Let's see.
How do you resolve this problem within yourself, please?
Resolve what problem within myself? Please clarify what it is you are asking me here so that I don't need to speculate what it is you mean, ok? Thanks.
@mP:
how do you manage to write so much with so little quotes ? [you] must have typed thousands of words all from a [scripture] with a dozen words.
Huh? I guess I'm good like that. How did you manage to type so few words and yet not catch the two typos I found in your post? Just kidding. I make more than my share of typos.
@Bubblegum Apotheosis:
@djeggnog: the "Freedom of Christian Conscience" is a foreign concept to weak christians who are still sucking on the [udders] of Momma Cow. A refreshing set of ideas you bring with you, that are not taught openly in meetings of publishers,elders, C.O.s. I will not allow another's conscience to control my spiritual freedom, so I am not afraid to ask questions from [multiple] sources.
This is how it should be for every human being with a brain and a conscience, but many people refuse to think because they've never really had to do much of this in their life, except maybe to order something from the Drive-Thru at McDonalds.™
This has been a long thread, but well worth the time spent reading it, trying to better understanding Bible interpretations, is not for the half hearted and weak. King [Jehoash's] example of his half hearted effort (2 Kings 13) by striking the ground only three times, instead striking with all his energy and without let up, failed to bring the desired result of God's favor. I hope you (DJegg) continue to strike the ground without let up, and don't allow anyone to steal, or impress your Christian freedom into their service.
I am first zealous for the worship of Jehovah, perhaps a little more than was Jehoash, but after suffering more than a few defeats at the hands of Syria, he received mercy and was able to recover possession of the cities that he had lost to the king of Syria from the Syrian king's son. (2 Kings 13:22-25) I'm happy to hear you know this stuff, for there are many folks here that formerly associated with Jehovah's Witnesses that along the way lost their zeal for true worship and really need to come back to God's organization, but maybe this time with another congregation or another circuit, anywhere the causes for stumbling won't be. If some of these on here -- on JWN -- would come back to God's organization, I'm pretty sure that he'd also be merciful toward them.
I ended the previous thread on this subject, saying I thought this was a topic that was not going away (glad it did not!). I love these kind of threads, I wish Marvin Shilmer would post his thoughts, (drift away from his Blood expertise for a moment) to add his scholarly skills to Biblical subjects (unless he is an atheist?) of "This Generation" What a fun thread!
This thread is "funnish," @Bubblegum Apotheosis. I know I'm enjoying it!
@djeggnog wrote:
If you read above I didn't write "Christians might be free people"; you did. If you should be one of Jehovah's Witnesses and you, as one of Jehovah's Witnesses, should turn over your brain to someone else to obey whatever that person says, then you are not free, but in slavery. Nothing you might say in response to me will change this.
@Bungi Bill wrote:
Thank you, you have just shot your bloody self in the foot with that remark!
Did I?
Few (if any) of us here are going to swallow that line of yours about JWs being "free" to choose what they do or what they believe:
- too many of us have been there already, and happen to know otherwise.
Ok.
@THE GLADIATOR wrote:
Beaten by the passage of time the Watchtower Society had been forced to move the date for the battle of Armageddon....
@djeggnog wrote:
Jehovah's Witnesses have never predicted the arrival of Armageddon, especially in view of the fact that we have always taught what Jesus himself taught at Matthew 24:36, namely, that no one knows "that day and hour." How could Jehovah's Witnesses have moved a date that they have never known, let alone set?
@THE GLADIATOR wrote:
How about this?
"If you are a young person, you also need to face the fact that you will never grow old in this present system of things. Why not? Because all the evidence in fulfillment of Bible prophecy indicates that this corrupt system is due to end in a few years. Of the generation that observed the beginning of the "last days" in 1914, Jesus foretold: "This generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur."-Matt. 24:34. Therefore, as a young person, you will never fulfill any career that this system offers. If you are in highschool and thinking about a college education, it means at least four, perhaps even six or eight more years to graduate into a specialized career. But where will this system of things be by that time? It will be well on the way toward its finish, if not actually gone!"
Awake! 1969 May 22 p.15
This is called speculation. The answer to the question, But where will this system of things be by that time?" is "We don't know," but I didn't write this paragraph, and as far as the last sentence, if I had written it, I would have written instead the following:
"But where will this system of things be by that time? We don't know, but it may be well on the way toward its finish, if not actually gone!"
I would never read more into something I read than is there, no matter what I might wish the material I'm reading to say. But there are many more people that will engage in speculation and read more into what they read or hear than was actually written or heard. Oh, well.
Now I didn’t actually say the Watchtower Society had set a date, I simply quoted from the No need to stay Awake! And inferred that they had. I learnt this neat little trick by reading Watchtowers.
Ok. Thanks for sharing this with me, @THE GLADIATOR.
@djeggnog
