00DAD,
You are quite right, of course.
I admit to taking pleasure out of calling he - and the likes of him - F#%kWits Dunderheads to their faces:
- and thus stick pins into their backsides!
Bill.
Is the Watchtower shy about repeating their new "generation" teaching?
by slimboyfat 245 Replies latest jw friends
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Ucantnome
I recall that there were those during the late 60s and early 70s that had "decided" based on something they heard one or more of the speakers at their Kingdom Hall say that they would forego the expense of giving one or more of their children a college education, or who withdrew their own plans to go to college, and all because it was imagined that the end of this system of things was going to arrive in 1975. Never mind what the Bible says at Matthew 24:36 as to no one knowing "that day and hour," not even Jesus knew at the time he said these words. Why the masthead of the Awake! magazine at the time, which appeared until November 8, 1995, read:
"Most important, this magazine builds confidence in the Creator's promise of a peaceful and secure new world before the generation that saw the events of 1914 passes away."
We have here a "He has blasphemed. What further need do we have for witnesses" moment. In those days people were running up their credit cards and piling up debt as if they knew something that no one else knew. I recall approaching Charles Sinutko at the time about the 1975 fervor that existed and we discussed how his remarks might be construed by some in our district to mean more than they actually did, but the point I'm making here is that we are just men doing the best we can with many of our imperfections perfectly intact. Expecting perfection from an elder is always going to lead to disappointment.
Djeggnog
I think the position taken by the organization is that they are "commissioned to serve as the mouthpeice and active agent of Jehovah" Like the prophet Ezekiel.
When the prophet tells you that God has promised something I don't think it would be to much to expect it to be true or else you would have to question the prophet and whether he was really serving in that capacity.
The change in the teaching about the generation shows that the previous teaching was wrong. The promise that was taught
"Most important, this magazine builds confidence in the Creator's promise of a peaceful and secure new world before the generation that saw the events of 1914 passes away."
and was part of a world wide Witness work could not have originated with God if it was untrue. So now I find I have to question the prophet. Are they "commissioned to serve as the mouthpeice and active agent of Jehovah" ?
Maybe they are "shy about repeating their new "generation" teaching". I don't feel that it can be dismissed by saying we are all impefect.
A day can mean various amounts of time. The meaning of "the generation" I was brought up to believe was my Grandfathers generation, the people of his day.
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00DAD
Black Sheep: It is a doppelganger for our family members. An opportunity to practice debating with a JW before taking up the gudgel with your loved ones. Use it wisely.
Ok, that makes sense. That being said, you get to see how successful it is. When you're dealing with a fully indoctrinated cult member, reason and logic are completely useless as DJEggNog proves time and time again.
Seriously, the society used Fred Franz as example of the "first group" in the DC talk which introduced this lame-brained doctrine. He was 99 years old when he died. Everyone on the planet that has lived for more than a dozen years, give or take, knows that a person that is nearly 100 could easily have great-granchildren or even another "generation" of offspring. That means that the typical centenarian is the oldest of 3,4 or 5 generations of living people. They are most decidedly NOT the "first group" of a single generation which could potentially included their great-grandchildren's great-grandchildren.
This doctrine is, to my knowledge, the stupidest thing the WTBTS has ever come up with!
The fact that ANY JW's subscribe to it is proof of the manipulative power of mind-control.
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Bubblegum Apotheosis
djegg, are you considered a rebel in your congregation, have you been "Marked" by men afraid of your Bible knowledge and education?
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djeggnog
@djeggnog wrote:
This is called speculation. The answer to the question, But where will this system of things be by that time?" is "We don't know," but I didn't write this paragraph, and as far as the last sentence, if I had written it, I would have written instead the following:
"But where will this system of things be by that time? We don't know, but it may be well on the way toward its finish, if not actually gone!"
@Leolaia:
But it is explicitly called a "fact".
No, there's nothing explicitly being called a fact in that article, "What Future for the Young?" that appeared in the Awake! dated May 22, 1969, for the article clearly speculates that "all the evidence ... indicates that this corrupt system is due to end in a few years."
At the Los Angeles Music Center here in Los Angeles, two actresses -- Barbra Streisand ("Funny Girl"), who was 27 at the time, and Katharine Hepburn ("The Lion in Winter"), who was 62 at the time -- tied in winning Oscar for the first time in this category in the history of the awards show for "Best Actress" for which category they had both been nominated and obtained 3,030 votes each. Along with Patricia Neal ("The Subject Was Roses"), who was 43 in 1969, Vanessa Redgrave ("Isadora"), who was 32 in 1969, and Joanne Woodward ("Rachel, Rachel"), who was 39 in 1969, all five of these actresses had been nominated for the "Best Actress" category on February 24, 1969, and the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences declared that two statuettes for "Best Actress" would be awarded at the 41st Academy Awards for 1968 to both Streisand and Hepburn at the Dorothy Chandler Pavillion.
"If you were to speculate back in 1969, the evidence indicated that the oldest of the nominees for this category (Hepburn) or the youngest of the nominees (Steisand) would win the Academy Award of Merit for Performance by an Actress (Best Actress), or one of the other three (Neal, Redgrave and Woodward). Why not? Because all the evidence indicated that only one of these five (5) woman would win Best Actress."
As things turned out, what was speculated based on the evidence didn't turn out to be the case, for not one, but two of the nominees won "Best Actress" in 1969 for their performances in these 1968 films." The fact that two actresses won in 1969 and not just one for "Best Actress" doesn't mean that what was expected to occur didn't occur as if a prediction had failed, but only that what had been speculated based upon the evidence did not turn out to be what actually did occur.
Back in 1969, it was hoped that because 1975 would mark the end of 6,000 years of human history that this year would mark the beginning of Christ's Millennial Reign, and many people had begun to speculate that the end of 6,000 years of human history would also be the end of this system of things. However, these two things turned out to be mutually exclusive events, because with the close of 1975, it is clear that while 1975 did mark the end of 6,000 years of human history, and it is also clear that 1975 didn't turn out to be the end of this system of things as had been speculated by some back in 1969.
Contrary to what many of you here on JWN have said in this thread and in other threads, there could be no prediction as to 1975 by Jehovah's Witnesses to which one could point in our literature in those years that preceded 1975 since Matthew 24:36 indicated that as to "that day and hour," no one could know when the end of this system of things would occur, so anyone that thought the end of this system of things would occur in 1975 was clearly speculating because he or she had no evidence that would back up such a conclusion.
Speculation is never a fact, @Leolaia, even if what one should speculate turns out to be true. Proof that speculating is never a fact is that anyone that had speculated that it would be one of those five women that were nominated for "Best Actress" in 1969 would win was wrong because, as it turned out, not one woman, but two of these five nominees won Oscar for Best Actress in 1969.
"If you are a young person, you also need to face the fact that you will never grow old in this present system of things." (published in 1969, almost 43 years ago)
Nothing need be read into this statement.
I agree with you, but then why do you suppose that you and others like you have gone on to read more into this statement anyway? IOW, @Leolaia, why the strawman?
@designs:
Leolaia- The Watchtower was correct I have not aged in the past 43 years, true believers have the Peter Pan gene. (now 63)
Where in any Watchtower magazine did you ever read that you would not age as long as you continued to live in the present system of things? In what Watchtower magazine was it ever pointed out that the great tribulation (Matthew 24:21) had occurred prior to 1975? Do you recall reading any mention of the great tribulation having occurred in any of the more recent issues of the Watchtower magazine? I recently downloaded the Watchtower dated June 15, 2012, and just like back in 1969, nowhere in it is there mention made of the great tribulation as having occurred, so why would you even have construed the statement that @Leolaia quotes above from the Awake! dated May 22, 1969, to mean that you would not age?
I'm sorry that you drew such a wrong conclusion, but I suspect that if you happened to be among those in God's organization at that time, someone that had not obtained a high school education, that you would have been easily led by others, easily persuaded to believe that this statement that @Leolaia quoted from this Awake! magazine to have meant something that it really did not mean. You may not like to hear this, but even some high school graduates are lazy when it comes to reasoning on matters, and so in their ignorance they won't question any of the unreasonable things that one ought to question. If you were once of these, @designs, then you were gullible, which means that you were easily deceived, fooled, naive and too trusting of the folks you trusted.
@Ucantnome:
I think the position taken by the organization is that they are "commissioned to serve as the [mouthpiece] and active agent of Jehovah" Like the prophet Ezekiel.
When the prophet tells you that God has promised something I don't think it would be to much to expect it to be true or else you would have to question the prophet and whether he was really serving in that capacity.
Here's a point that I probably should have made in my responses to @Leolaia and @designs' posts: Even those Jehovah's Witnesses that due to an eagerness on their part for the end of the current system of things to come had failed to preface their remarks and declare Jehovah to have so advised them that the end would come in 1975.
Now anyone that should have heard any one of them say such a thing would then have had every right to confront the person in order to have asked whether their statement -- their prediction -- is based on something they read in the Bible, and, if so, went on to ask the person to provide the book, chapter and verse on which their prediction was based. Of course, this didn't always happen, but had such folks been confronted and been asked to produce the scriptural citation(s) on which their statement to this effect was based, then upon their failure to produce same, one would then have had every right to reject the statement as false and scripturally unfounded.
I don't know if you are in the US, or even if you aren't in the US, perhaps you followed the events that occurred here in the US after 9/11 when former Bush Administration Secretary of Homeland Security, Tom Ridge, caused a rush on hardware stores by many Americans in February 2003 when he pointed out how duct tape and plastic sheeting should be a part of everyone's survival kit in preparing for a terrorist attack.
This statement is what led to what could be dubbed "duct tape mania," except it didn't even occur to those of us having more education than did Tom Ridge to suggest such foolishness to step one foot out of their homes to the nearest Home Depot or whatever hardware store to buy duct tape or plastic sheeting to protect them, having learned in school that in the event of a biological attack by terrorists, it isn't possible to use duct tape to protect against biological weapons like mustard gas, sarin gas, ricin gas, hydrogen cyanide gas, biotoxins and radio iodine. As a result of Tom Ridge, the Duct Tape industry here in the US is now a $150 million/year industry.
It is those with little education -- the ignorant that are a part of the US citizenry -- which has been calculated to be somewhere around 45% of the US population that were out there at those hardware stores asking for "duck tape" and not "duct tape." How many of this 45% do you think were buying duct tape back in 2003 were among those that were gullible enough to believe those who were telling them how the end of this system of things was going to occur in 1975? There was no great tribulation, and yet the end is coming even though the Bible clearly states that it would only be when they are saying "Peace and security!" that the great tribulation would occur. "Come on, Ma, the end is near! I don't want you to die."
No, the Bible doesn't tell us when the end is coming, but even though Jehovah doesn't tell us, if you have an influential elder in your congregation and he's sure or a very influential sister and she is convinced that the end is coming in 1975, we must go out and hurriedly tell all of our relatives that it is a must that they join Jehovah's Witnesses and get baptized before 1975. Really?!?
The change in the teaching about the generation shows that the previous teaching was wrong.
Yes, it was wrong to believe that the generation to which Jesus referred at Matthew 24:34 had to do with a generation of people, when we now realize that by "this generation," Jesus was referring to the generation of the sign, which began when the anointed remnant began to discern the visible evidence of the composite sign.
The promise that was taught
"Most important, this magazine builds confidence in the Creator's promise of a peaceful and secure new world before the generation that saw the events of 1914 passes away."
and was part of a world wide Witness work could not have originated with God if it was untrue.
This statement that appeared on the masthead of the Awake! magazine before November 8, 1995, did not originate with God, and no one that had read the Awake! magazine back in 1969 would have concluded that these words were quoted from the Bible. If the Society had understood that they was a contingent of illiterate Jehovah's Witnesses had mistakenly thought that this masthead was being regarded by them as if it were an inerrant statement from the Bible, it would have taken steps to remove this masthead much earlier than it did since in no way from it the Society's intention to deceive or mislead anyone to believe that this statement in the masthead was taken from the Bible. The majority of Jehovah's Witnesses did not believe this statement to have been inerrant.
So now I find I have to question the prophet. Are they "commissioned to serve as the mouthpeice and active agent of Jehovah" ?
Yes, we are.
Maybe they are "shy about repeating their new "generation" teaching". I don't feel that it can be dismissed by saying we are all [imperfect].
Jehovah's Witnesses are not shy of the new "generation" teaching. No one seeks to dismiss our earlier interpretation that we have now disregarded on the basis that we are all imperfect. When we realize that we have made a mistake in our viewpoint, it is important to discard our former interpretation, which we do, and to progressively teach what we now believe to be the correct interpretation of Matthew 24:34, and the scriptural basis for what we teach as far as Jesus' use of the word "generation," which, in this case, is based on our applying of the meaning of the word "generation" as used at Exodus 1:6.
A day can mean various amounts of time. The meaning of "the generation" I was brought up to believe was my Grandfathers generation, the people of his day.
Anyone that was "brought up" before April 2010 would have learned a very different interpretation for Matthew 24:34 than exists among Jehovah's Witnesses today, for since April 2010, Jehovah's Witnesses have a very different interpretation of "this generation" that is used by Jesus at Matthew 24:34.
@Bubblegum Apotheosis:
djegg, are you considered a rebel in your congregation, have you been "Marked" by men afraid of your Bible knowledge and education?
I don't believe so, but why should this be when I'm absolutely correct in the things I have said here about the ignorance that exists in many of those who are spiritually qualified to serve as elders, but who think their being spiritually qualified to mean that they are qualified in other respects when many of these spiritually-qualified men are ignorant as to many things, including as to how the world works.
It is not uncommon to hear about investigations being conducted by some of the elders into the personal affairs of someone in whose care they were appointed as spiritual shepherds, which "investigations" have turned out to be witch hunts with elders or someone being appointed by one of them to stalk a fellow Christian, not with a view to helping them to overcome some problem, but with a view to disgracing them in the eyes of the congregation, their spiritual brothers and sisters, by a disfellowshipping action.
My Bible knowledge and education aside, we are all of us men, imperfect men, which is not to excuse anyone's bad behavior, but just to explain why some here on JWN may have been victimized by the bad motives of those that sat in judgment of them. I cannot possibly know the facts involved with the decision to disfellowship or the decisions made by some of those who were formerly Jehovah's Witnesses to disassociate themselves from God's organization, but I can imagine some very bad decisions could well have been responsible for the damaging of so many lives, and while we are keeping our eyes on those "who cause divisions and occasions for stumbling," that "where a man considers something to be defiled, to him it is defiled." (Romans 14:13, 14; 16:17, 18)
In fact, as far as those that have been causes for some stumbling in God's organization, Jesus stated that it would be more advantageous to him were a millstone "suspended from his neck and he were thrown into the sea than for him to stumble one of these little ones." (Luke 17:2) You see, "in no way are we giving to others any cause for stumbling." (2 Corinthians 6:3) Some stumbled upon hearing some of the things that Jesus said, but if someone is imperfect, he or she can stumble, and they stumble "many times." (John 6:51-56, 60, 61; James 3:2)
Contrary to what many people have been persuaded to believe, elders are not appointed to break up families and the belief that some have as far as family members not speaking with their own disfellowshipped family members, or even attending the funerals of disfellowshipped family members, does have the effect of making those who are not Jehovah's Witnesses believe that we have somehow become emotionless, a people "having no natural affection" (2 Timothy 3:3), which is so very far from the truth. You cannot know what is taking place goes behind-the-scenes in God's organization and I'm not in any position to inform you of what those things might be nor do I have an interest in satisfying anyone's burning curiosity, but suffice it to say, @Bubblegum Apotheosis, that opinions on this website are abundant and many of these opinions are pure speculation.
@djeggnog
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djeggnog
The text of the "masthead" on Page 2 of the May 22, 1969 Awake! reads as follows:
"THE REASON FOR THIS MAGAZINE
"News sources that are able to keep you awake to the vital issues of our times must be unfettered by censorship and selfish interests. 'Awake!' has no fetters. It recognizes facts, faces facts, is free to publish facts. It is not bound by political ties; it is unhampered by traditional creeds. This magazine keeps itself free, that it may speak freely to you. But it does not abuse its freedom. It maintains integrity to truth.
"The viewpoint of 'Awake!' is not narrow, but is international. 'Awake!' has its own correspondents in scores of nations. Its articles are read in many lands, in many languages, by millions of persons.
"In every issue 'Awake!' presents vital topics on which you should be informed. It features penetrating articles on social conditions and offers sound counsel for meeting the problems of everyday life. Current news from every continent passes in quick review. Attention is focused on activities in the fields of government and commerce about which you should know. Straightforward discussions of religious issues alert you to matters of vital concern. Customs and people in many lands, the marvels of creation, practical sciences and points of human interest are all embraced in its coverage. 'Awake!' provide wholesome, instructive reading for every member of the family.
"'Awake!' pledges itself to righteous principles, to exposing hidden foes and subtle dangers, to championing freedom for all, to comforting mourners and strengthening those disheartened by the failures of a delinquent world, reflecting sure hope for the establishment of God's righteous new order in this generation.
"Get acquainted with 'Awake!' Keep awake by reading 'Awake!'"
@djeggnog
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elderelite
Provebs 10:19 eggnog.... Read it, apply it
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No Room For George
You guys/gals walk into this mess.......SMH..........LOL Seriously fellaz? LOL Cot-damn.
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slimboyfat
Awake! 1969: "If you are a young person, you also need to face the fact that you will never grow old in this present system of things."
djeggnog: "No, there's nothing explicitly being called a fact in that article."
The mind boggles.
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castthefirststone
@djeggnog, you said:
No, there's nothing explicitly being called a fact in that article, "What Future for the Young?" that appeared in the Awake! dated May 22, 1969, for the article clearly speculates that "all the evidence ... indicates that this corrupt system is due to end in a few years
The Watchtower of 15 December 1953 said this:
The purpose of the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society since its inception has been to check not just the “proof texts” every religion has, but every text relating to every doctrine of Christendom. The job is tremendous, and has taken decades. It could be done only with the blessing of the holy spirit, and it is the only way to return to the unity of true worship, the faith of the apostles, and the favor of God. If the Bible actually teaches a doctrine, then and then only should it be accepted. If it is speculation, human theory, some man’s idea, it should be rejected.
Therefore from your Master's own mouth you should reject everything they publish as you admitted it's mere speculation.
Also proof to us that the theory of overlapping generations is not more speculation, but keep in mind everything you write here is permanent and once your Masters decide to change their speculation we will hold you accountable for your comments you made here.