Hostile to atheists (page 22)

tec

You mean for the spiritual? It is more of another realm. Not a place. The kingdom comes down out of heaven, to us.

So if you want evidence for spiritual - I give you mankind and its spiritual seeking and belief. Since the very dawn of mankind. Oftentimes this has succumbed to superstition, as different meanings and understandings are assigned to that spirituality, and as some seek to control others with it. But in every culture, in every place, in every time, there has been a seeking of the spiritual - creator (s), gods, goddesses, spirit animals, etc. Buddhism is all spiritual, and the people who devote themselves to this have peace as well. I think it is a real need that many people have... this seeking to connect with the spiritual part of ourselves.

Now, if you want evidence for the kingdom as Christ spoke of it, then you must look to Christ. His words. The truth in his words and teachings and deeds. Nothing he has ever said, or that he has ever still said or revealed, has even been anything other than truth. To me.

Peace,

tammy

NewChapter

But you said your beliefs were based on evidence. The only evidence you have offered so far is that people have always seeked the spiritual. There could be a causation mistake there.

For instance, searching for the spiritual is not evidence for the spiritual, but evidence that humans have sought for it. The existence of the spiritual is not proven by seeking for such. Think of the search for the fountain of youth. So is it a case of wishful thinking?

Now what causes the search for the spiritual? I hypothesize it is our ability to think symbolically, to remember our dead, to question our future. In the absence of answers, we were able to create answers. But as Minchin has said, every mystery ever solved in the history of the world has been not magic.

So, the original question: what evidence is there for heaven. You answer seems to be because Jesus said so. So an appeal to authority. Okay.

What evidence do you have that what Jesus says is true?

NC

tec

And I hypothesize that searching for the spiritual is evidence of a need. You might have felt that need at one point, and if so, you can understand a little about what it feels like. Imagine someone with no prior knowledge of any creator, spiritual, gods, goddesses, religion, etc... seeking out the spiritual. Because that is what happened. Take it all away and start us from scratch, and we will still seek out the spiritual. Because that is precisely what DID happen.

I agree with Minchin's comment, and I apply it to everything we think is 'magic' now. Including the spiritual, including 'miracles'. We just don't understand it through scientific means... yet. (The miracle is that Christ had the understanding and ability to perform what we consider miracles ... long, long before their time of understanding come to pass. We are just babies in our understanding, and barely even babies at that)

What evidence do you have that what Jesus says is true?

Because all of what he said and taught is true. So was he right about everything he taught... other than this one thing; other than where he said he came from? You may choose to believe so... that is following other evidence that may or may not be correct. I have no reason not to believe so, so I follow that evidence. My words a couple of posts up:

The truth in his words and teachings and deeds. Nothing he has ever said, or that he has ever still said or revealed, has even been anything other than truth. To me.

I trust Him. I have no reason not to. I also hear him, NC... sometimes in words (rarely); sometimes in understanding/revelation.

The witness accounts are also evidence of Him, confirmed (or not) through what I hear from Him in spirit.

Peace,

tammy

NewChapter

NC: What evidence do you have that what Jesus says is true?

TEC: Because all of what he said and taught is true. So was he right about everything he taught... other than this one thing; other than where he said he came from?

So circular reasoning is your evidence? You are the one that said belief is based on evidence. I asked you for evidence. You used circular reasoning. You still have not proven that what Jesus said was true, you simply assert that it is true because it is true. Not a good argument.

I am still waiting for evidence. The search for the spiritual is not evidence of the spiritual.

NC

tec

Ah... application of his teachings and his lessons show them to be true. Hope that clarifies. Also I said the need for the spiritual is evidence of the e x istence of the spiritual. Evidence, not proof.

Also, I am off to work, and will be back in a few hours.

Peace,

tammy

NewChapter

That is not even evidence. Proof is impossible without evidence. Circular reasoning is not evidence, and therefore, not proof. Seeking is neither evidence nor proof. Searching is simply evidence that people search for things, not proof that what they search actually exists. People search for a lost continent. This is not proof that such exists, simply that people desire to search for it.

I have said that belief is not evidence based. You have said that it is. It is fine to live a life not based on evidence, but when an extraordinary claim is made that it IS evidence based, a fair question is to ask for that evidence. I am asking for that evidence. You have offered none.

Scientist make lots of hypotheses. Most of them fall through. Just testing a hypothesis is not evidence (such as testing the hypothesis that the spiritual exists). When evidence is required, if they cannot support their assertion, the hypothesis is abandoned. That is what evidence based means.

If you want to stir science into the mix, then you need to follow the scientific method---otherwise it is not science and you shouldn't try to combine the two. So far the evidence offered (cuz you brought science and evidence into this) is feeling, searching, and teaching. Thomas Jefferson taught us a lot of powerful lessons---yet he held slaves. Does he get a pass? Do I get to say, well he was right about a great many things, so I can take his stand in slavery on faith? I think not. Therefore the argument that Jesus taught some truths is not an argument that everything he taught was true.

NC

FlyingHighNow

Suggestions are welcome.

Honey--- you say that like it's a bad tha-a-ang.

That's what I would say.

FlyingHighNow

I think letting religion or atheism get involved in politics is a bad thing. I think about China and the USSR and other countries who decided everyone should be atheists. Either extreme, an intertwined church and state or an atheist state is wrong and will step all over individual inborn rights. Want people to be miserable, tell them they either must believe or cannot believe under threat of punishment.

Tec, it's not necessary to prove God to an atheist. An atheist, like you or me is on his/her own journey. We all have to walk our own journeys.

NewChapter

LOL. I'm thinking of thanking him for his warm message and it has touched my heart. Jesus must be smiling on him right now. How I am tempted to join a belief system that allows me to threaten total strangers with eternal pain and suffering. But alas, I am defective, and I cannot find joy in the pain of others. but he can take comfort in the fact that while he is experiencing eternal ecstacy, I and others that have touched his life will be screaming for mercy and begging for relief. He has been a good ambassador for his god.

NC

Hostile to atheists

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