Jwfacts, Why Do You Equate Miracles With Magic?

by Recovery 398 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    Daniel, chapter 1.

    Daniel and his companions were described as educated and trained in the literature of the Babylonians, specifically, that pertaining to the magical arts. Now the story does not specifically say that Daniel practiced magic per se; it does say that he obtained his (miraculous) abilities from God. So he was better than all the magicians, but it doesn't say that he was a magician himself. But the point is that Daniel did not refuse an education in pagan mantic literature. He didn't throw his magical books into the garbage. He did refuse the royal food. So he could have also refused the learning of magic on the same grounds (that it was defiling). Daniel and his companions similarly accepted pagan names that included names of Babylonian gods. But they refused to compromise on idolatry, to the point of death.

  • Qcmbr
    Qcmbr

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_the_Magician

    The charge that Jesus was a magician did not originate with Morton Smith. It was previously voiced by the philosopher and critic Celsus (The True Word c. 200 CE) as we know from the rebuttal authored by the Christian apologist/scholar Origen: “It was by magic that he was able to do the miracles” (Contra Celsum 1.6). Clearly, for Celsus to have repeated the story, it must have had long currency before he came to write his book. Hans Dieter Betz (1994) observes that "from early on even Jesus of Nazareth was implicated in that he was said to be mad or a magician possessed by Satan" and R. Joseph Hoffmann writes (1987) that "that the early Christian mission was advanced by the use of magic is well attested."

    Discovery News reported in 2008 the discovery by French marine archaeologist Franck Goddioof a bowl dating "to between the late 2nd century B.C. and the early 1st century A.D." which refers to Jesus as a magician: "DIA CHRSTOU O GOISTAIS," which, the article tells us, "has been interpreted to mean either, 'by Christ the magician' or, 'the magician by Christ.'" Assuming this references Jesus, this is the earliest known reference to Jesus as a magician. [citation needed] Depiction of Jesus describes how Jesus was artistically portrayed in early Christian art.

  • mP
    mP

    Qcmbr

    He repeats this pattern when Jesus' first miracle is to make booze rather than something vaguely useful like cure the world of malaria.

    mP

    Ive watched a doco, it might have been from the BBC, that stated changing water into wine was a standard trick in many Egyptian temples. The priests there invested in water jugs and other equipment built by Heron of Alexandria. Heron apparently used pressure to control whether water or wine came out of his custom jugs. He also had many other interesting devices such as the worlds first vending machine, where the worshipper would deposit coins into some slots and a machine would pour water into a cup or glass. Its a was very interesting and showed just how clever the anceints were. It also shows that church back then was a combination of entertainment and showmanship something lost to many churches today.

  • Witness My Fury
    Witness My Fury

    Recovery I gave you the benefit of the doubt yesterday because that's the kind of chap I am.

    You said you are doing (or going to do) research into the bible and your religion and whether it stands up to scrutiny or not (my wording, but the gist is the same surely). ... That REQUIRES humility to do that, it does. Yet your continued posting history as evidenced by the type of threads you start and your style of argument shows no humility at all, just arrogance.

    You have done next to no research, you probably havent even read the bible cover to cover (or any other way round) with an open and honest blinkers off approach to understanding, ...yet here you are defending it's litteralist bullshit to the hilt talking about things you have not even proven to yourself as if they are fact. Go and do the bloody research, then come back here with eyes wide open and either your faith in tact or in shreds.

    I can tell you now though that many who honestly examine the bible come to the obvious conclusion that it is NOT what they thought it was. YHWH is NOT what they thought he was. Christ was NOT who they thought he was... you get the picture? Do the research and be prepared for some pain and shocks along the way and be prepared to admit that you have been lied to all your life and that things you held as true were simply the creations of man, and the delusion of belief is simply that.. a delusion.

    Red pill or blue pill? You decide.

  • milola
    milola

    I am sorry. I had to chuckle at one point in this thread when (at post 132 of Recovery) I would have swore I was sitting thru a talk at a Kingdom Hall.

    "Notice" blah blah blah. Perhaps the joy of pioneering is returning to you now. It sure is making it easier to get your hours in here.

  • Witness My Fury
    Witness My Fury
    Perhaps the joy of pioneering is returning to you now. It sure is making it easier to get your hours in here.

    A very valid point, one that I'd forgotten about, ...are you counting time here and making a cushy load of hours and RVs?

  • castthefirststone
    castthefirststone

    Recovery, please correct me if I'm wrong but your main argument is that the power to perform miracles is from Jehovah and the power to perform magic is from Satan. Is this correct?

  • sizemik
    sizemik
    Magic relies on suggestion and belief to be successful. . . . st

    True . . . as does religious delusion.

  • Qcmbr
    Qcmbr

    I think you could make a case that magic , in pre-industraialised cultures, was a human response to the perceived divine miracles. So a person , powerless in the face of a sea god raising storms could chant a magic mantra and clasp a magic amulet as a way to appease or mitigate the storm. As such you could see that much of the Israelite rituals was magical (sacrificial animals, sprinkling of blood, cutting off penile tissue, ark of the Covenant, staff of Aaron, Urim and Thummim etc.) ; human responses in the face of an implacable god working his will regardless of human will.

    One wonders, given the awe that a modern day magician engenders, how powerful someone who could do basic illusionist magic would become. Jesus never seems to rise above the level of illusionist and con artists in the New Testament. This is not to denigrate any real charachter or their positive teachings but to show that the records that were made focused upon the sort of things that would impress a person from cultures back then. If I had record the life of a 'miracle' worker today I'd probably focus less on turning water to wine and more on philosophical teachings, I'd want to be a lot more analytical as well about such miracles as the loaves and the fishes, what happened, how did I know it wasn't sleight of hand and a bunch of well paid assistants.

    I think - going back to the definition of magic - you could aslo suggest that a division between magic and miracle was that magic was unauthorised while miracles where authorised but that potentially both were supposed to be powered by the realm of <insert term such as 'spirits'>. The Priests of Egypt were not of the Priesthood line (supposedly descended from Ham the cursed son of Noah who discovered the secrets of Noah in an unathorised way) whereas Moses was given direct authority by God.

  • Recovery
    Recovery

    Leolaia I'm sorry I just dont see your point about Daniel. There is nothing in chapter 1 that indicates that Daniel underwent a serious study of Babylonian magic as a part of his training.Is that just an inference you made or is it found somewhere else in the book of Daniel?

    Witness My Fury, please. All the members of this board do is throw insults my way all day long. I dont need to be nice to anyone since it is obvious.most.people have their mind made up about me. So please spare the insults for someone who cares.

    To the person who asked me to.prove why.miracles do not.occur today see page 4 post #2

    And jwfacts has still yet to address several of my posts. Hmmmmmm

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