I dont see any insults in my post matey. I called you arrogant, because that is what you have demonstated yourself to be.You flash an occaisonal glimpse of honesty and even humility and then proceed to bury it again with hostility and contempt. Just sayin....
Jwfacts, Why Do You Equate Miracles With Magic?
by Recovery 398 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Recovery
There was no hostility or contempt in any of my posts. I use quite a bit of sarcasm but that is not arrogance, it is my sense of humor. Learn the difference.
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still thinking
Sarcasm doesn't often come across very well on an internet forum and is often misunderstood until you get to know a posters style..even then sometimes not.
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jwfacts
I have answered all your questions, it seems you are struggling to think outside your indoctrinally imposed box to understand the answers.
That is why the Bible says that these things would be done away with (by God) after the restraint (the apostles) were gone, because there would no longer be a clear distinction between what is really from God and what is not.
This is yet another of your false arguments, that no doubt you think is accurate, yet again because of indoctrination. The Bible does not say that these things would be done away with "after the restraint of the Apostles", that is what the Watchtower says. The Bible shows that the gifts would not be done away with until “that which is complete arrives” and we see “face to face”, which is a reference to going to heaven.
1 Corinthians 13:8-138 Love never fails. But whether there are [gifts of] prophesying, they will be done away with; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will be done away with. 9 For we have partial knowledge and we prophesy partially; 10 but when that which is complete arrives, that which is partial will be done away with. 11 When I was a babe, I used to speak as a babe, to think as a babe, to reason as a babe; but now that I have become a man, I have done away with the [traits] of a babe. 12 For at present we see in hazy outline by means of a metal mirror, but then it will be face to face. At present I know partially, but then I shall know accurately even as I am accurately known. 13 Now, however, there remain faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
These gifts were to continue in the last days.
Acts 2:15-18 “These people are, in fact, not drunk, as you suppose, for it is the third hour of the day. On the contrary, this is what was said through the prophet Joel, ‘”And in the last days,” God says, “I shall pour out some of my spirit upon every sort of flesh, and your sons and your daughters will prophesy and your young men will see visions and your old men will dream dreams, and even upon my men slaves and upon my women slaves I will pour out some of my spirit in those days and they will prophesy.’”
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Qcmbr
Recovery - despite multiple people responding to you seem to only want to hear the words:
'The Watchtower is right.'
You've had plenty of information as to why most people responding consider that the terms magic and miracles can be used interchangeably. Through it all you seem content to ignore the effort people are making with you and to actually simply encourage those who have got sick of your condescension and are simply giving you back what you like to dish out.
Whether you are aware or not you are acting as a troll.
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breakfast of champions
Are miracles and magic the same thing? In one way, yes. Check this out:
On the way to a meeting for field service, a young pioneer sister was involved in a terrible car accident. She was rushed to the hospital with life threatening injuries. Doctors were able to stabilize her condition and save her life, but unfortunately, her face remained horribly disfigured and they were unable to reattach several of the fingers on her left hand. And elder/pioneer went to visit her in the hospital. Upon seeing her condition, he took pity on her and prayed to Jehovah aloud. The then took a handful of water from the sink, rubbed it between his hands and praying to God once again, touched her earlobe and the damaged hand. Instantly, the fingers on the hand were restored, and the flesh on her face became like new. The sister cried and thanked God for restoring her hand and face.
Pretty neat trick, right? I write a narrative and the reader accepts it as true (at least for an instant). But there comes a point where the reality tester in your head should go off and you have a decision: to suspend disbeleif and accept the entire story as true, or slowly, rationally parse the probaility of this actually occurring, or even the chance of this being an outright deception.
Then try swapping out the pioneer sister in the car accident with a young Hebrew widow sustaining the same injuries in a terrible marketplace accident in Jerusalem late in the First Century. Swap the Elder for one of Apostles. Add to it the fact that all of your family and friends believe the story to be true; in fact many people you don't even know and who do not share your religious beliefs believe it is true. They would even die for their belief that it is true. It starts to become more difficult for you to dismiss the story as false now.
This is how magic and miracles are similar. They are human stories/illusions that exploit our willingness to BELEIVE and suspend disbelief, especially in the face of vast social pressures.
PS: If you believe magic is real and exists today, you can make a lot of money that would come in handy for pioneering. The James Randi Foundation will give a million dollar prize to anyone who can demonstrate paranormal abilities under laboratory conditions!
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jwfacts
It seems you are upset that I ignored your car illustration. Illustrations are quaint, great to keep the congregation awake during a public talk, but are not proof of anything. Anyway, let me humour you.
The cars are exactly the same except for the engine. Just as a miracle and magic is exactly the same, except for who is powering it. Sweet. Well, as I already stated, Caleb can choose which engine he wants, he can power his wizard with Satan or Jehovah, making him perform either magic or a miracle. And if he chooses to make Satan the engine and the Wizard perform magic, he can then say it is a bad wizard that needs to be defeated. It is just a toy remember, waiting to be fueled by a child's imagination.
Regarding Disney, if you have watched Peter Pan, or Lion King, or Mickey Mouse, or almost any fairy story, then you are a hypocrite, because they all contain magic, so in your narrow definition all are steeped in the occult. And if you have not watched Disney, because you think the magic of fairy stories is from Satan then you are a sad, sad person. A fairy story is not occult worship.
And that is the point of my article. Sparlock is not a living Magician fighting against Jehovah's priest, he is a fairy tale with special powers, like Mickey Mouse.
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Witness My Fury
(2 Kings 6:1-7) . . .And the sons of the prophets began to say to E·li′sha: "Look, now! The place where we are dwelling before you is too cramped for us. 2 Let us go, please, as far as the Jordan and take from there each one a beam and make for ourselves there a place in which to dwell." So he said: "Go." 3 And a certain one went on to say: "Come on, please, and go with your servants." At that he said: "I myself shall go." 4 Accordingly he went with them, and they finally came to the Jordan and began to cut down the trees. 5 And it came about that a certain one was felling his beam, and the axhead itself fell into the water. And he began to cry out and say: "Alas, my master, for it was borrowed!" 6 Then the man of the [true] God said: "Where did it fall?" So he showed him the place. Immediately he cut off a piece of wood and threw it there and made the axhead float. 7 He now said: "Lift it up for yourself." At once he thrust his hand out and took it.
A floating axhead, ....miracle or magic? Or just good old fashioned bullshit?
Hang on, am i being humorous, sarcastic or deadly serious? H'mmm if only there was a way to distinguish between them so the reader might understand me better and not jumpt to conclusions.... oh hang on what are these smiley faces for? :
Well I dunno what some of them mean, but several lend themselves to making the distinctions clear ...
Take yer freakin pick...
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Knowsnothing
Post 132 of 145
Since 8/27/2012
No, King Solomon, I do not believe miracles occur in 2012, but I'm sure magic occurs.
Let's get started on debunking the underlying superstitions you hold. I've yet to see anything supernatural for myself. The only "proof" I've ever had are second-hand accounts. That's not a good sign for magic nor miracle.... If you have any experience you would like to share... by all means.
Now, this is reality TV at its best. This month, Indians were glued to their television as India’s leading tantrik or black magician Pandit Surinder Sharma tried repeatedly to kill atheist Sanal Edamaruku first with a death-causing tantra and then later with the “ultimate destruction ceremony” on live TV. This display was the result of a high-ranking government official Uma Bharati (former chief minister of the state of Madhya Pradesh) accusing her political opponents of using tantrik to cause disasters in her life.
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AnnOMaly
Was Jesus a sorcerer or was he performing a miracle? According to the Pharisees he was using sorcery. According to Jesus and the Gospel writers he was performing a miracle by God's holy spirit. Whatever the source, the effect was the same - a man was magically/miraculously cured.
(Matthew 12:22-24, 27, 28) . . .Then they brought him a demon-possessed man, blind and dumb; and he cured him, so that the dumb man spoke and saw. 23 Well, all the crowds were simply carried away and began to say: "May this not perhaps be the Son of David? At hearing this, the Pharisees said: "This fellow does not expel the demons except by means of Be·el′ze·bub, the ruler of the demons." ...
[Jesus:] " ... if I expel the demons by means of Be·el′ze·bub, by means of whom do YOUR sons expel them? This is why they will be judges of YOU. But if it is by means of God's spirit that I expel the demons, the kingdom of God has really overtaken YOU.
As regards Daniel's learning, the WTS teaches:
dp chap. 3 p. 34 par. 10 Tested-But True to Jehovah!
To make sure that the Hebrew teenagers would be molded to fit in with the Babylonian system, Nebuchadnezzar decreed that his officials "teach them the writing and the tongue of the Chaldeans." (Daniel 1:4) This was no ordinary education. The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia explains that it "comprised the study of Sumerian, Akkadian, Aramaic . . . , and other languages, as well as the extensive literature written in them." "The extensive literature" consisted of history, mathematics, astronomy, and so on. However, "associated religious texts, both omina [omens] and astrology . . . , played a large part."