by Bloody Hotdogs! 697 Replies latest jw friends
God gave us free will so that we could give it to him WILLINGLY. That's the essence of Christianity is it not? Willingly giving yourself to Christ.
Then that's not slavery, Sabby. Slaves, by defnition, cannot simply choose to not be a slave. You are wrong on this.
For me, there are more reasons to believe in a creator than to believe that a creator doesn't exist...primarily the "fine tuning" of the universe.
Why do you consider the universe to be "fine-tuned"?
No, there are not, nor should there be. There are humans we may sacrifice our life, resources and opportunity for, but there are no humans we should do anything for. Everything must be filtered through our own conscience first. Some people we care very deeply for would ask us to do things that we simply shouldn't. A young man kills his lover's husband, because he would do anything for her. That's twisted, and promoting such an attitude is twisted and unhealthy. I saw a program about a mother and daughter that were in prison together. The mother would have done anything for her daughter, and that meant helping out with the drug trade when people came to the house. The mother didn't fully understand what it was all about, but she did anything for her daughter, including taking the calls when her daughter wasn't there.
OK, fair enough, but allow me to rephrase. Are there not circumstances of which you would do anything for someone you loved? The setting greatly changes the factors in scenarios that involve life and death. Can you think of a circumstance that you would do anything for someone? What if your family is kidnapped and is about to be tortured to death? What are the rules of engagement in that setting? Luke 31 provides the essence to all of Christianity:
31 Do to others as you would have them do to you.
Now lets say someone wants to torture you to death. According to this rule doesn't that mean that they also deserve to be tortured to death? The argument could be made that two wrongs don't make a right and therefore anyone torturing someone that tortures could be considered as morally low as the torturer. However this is not the case because what is actually happening is that justice is taking place. If someone bullies they should be bullied back. You fight fire with fire. However what I just said seems contradictory to Matthew 5:
38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth. ' 39 But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. 40 And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. 41 If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. 42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.
The question that I ask here is that if the same rule applies to someone wanting to torture my family. If they rape and kill my son do I hand over my daughter too? I don't think that's what Jesus was talking about. He specifically mentions being slapped, sued and forced to walk which are all generally superficial aggressions especially when compared to rape and torture. These philosophies attributed to the man named "Jesus" are reminiscent of the teachings of Confucius. Consider the etymology of the word Confucius:
1837, Latinization of Chinese K'ung Fu-tzu "K'ung the philosopher (or Master)" (c.551 B.C.E.-c.479 B.C.E.). The name first appears in a Latin publication of Chinese works (Paris, 1687). Connection with the martial arts kung-fu is obscure, uncertain. His philosophy based on the Golden Rule: "What you do not like when done to yourself do not do to others." Related: Confucian (adj., 1837); Confucianism (1846).
The "Do unto others" rule is about Justice as well as it is about Love, because Love is just. So if someone tortures you, then they should get tortured in return. Most likely the torturer doesn't see it that way, because they don't want to be tortured. This makes them a coward and that's why people can watch movies while these cowards die horrible torturous deaths. Because they deserve it according to the Golden Rule.
You see, NC, you are not factoring in all types of settings you are just leaning upon your own experience and understanding of existence. So when you here something like "I would do anything for that person" you are put off because you simply are not taking into consideration all known factors. Which is a common mistake of people who don't believe in God, and even more common for people who preach that there IS no God, or not enough evidence for Him.
While we are on the topic of sacrifice I should bring up Abraham and Isaac because it paints my point about extenuating circumstances well. A major theme in the Holy Bible is shown through the events that are portrayed as "once and for all" scenarios. These circumstances are special in that they answer a question once and for all. The morality in these situations is going to be hard to pin down, but that doesn't mean it's not there. We have stories such as humans being deceived which is answering a question. You have characters with immense power that challenge the Will of God, but to an end. You have people like Job who suffered not for nothing, but for the reader to know that a question is being answered while we suffer. We have characters that sacrifice themselves once and for all for the betterment of all mankind and their ultimate salvation.
So, it's not surprising that we see a story like that of Abraham and Isaac in the Torah as it answers a question once and for all. That question is would we do what God did for us? Because if we wouldn't what would that mean? Also if we would what does that mean? The answer is important because it answers it once and for all eternity.
-Sab
Are there not circumstances of which you would do anything for someone you loved?
No.
Now lets say someone wants to torture you to death. According to this rule doesn't that mean that they also deserve to be tortured to death?
No. You clearly don't understand the golden rule. It has NOTHING to do with what people deserve.
The "Do unto others" rule is about Justice as well as it is about Love, because Love is just.
No, it's not. Stop making stuff up to defend your ridiculous position.
You see, NC, you are not factoring in all types of settings you are just leaning upon your own experience and understanding of existence.
You see, Sabby, you are making things up to defend ridiculous positions you find yourself in, you are leaning upon made up definitions of words and not knowing what you are talking about.
Good Morning Sab..
What if the alien promised you that it would save you and the people you love from the doom that exists on this planet? Surely you would consider it? The alien would allow questions, it wouldn't be a communist leader, it woud just be informing you that they are not going to come easy, as in it's not just going to be able to explain things easily because of the large gap of understanding. Because time is short the alien asks for faith because it will just make things run smoother until everything settles down and it can explain. Sometimes you have to trust someone who knows better than you and it doesn't even have to be an alien encounter.
Thats way too much speculation on something that can`t be proven..
Especially for someone with no faith..
The way you could get the alien killed is if you insisted on acting as if you knew the same information as it. Like when it brings you to it's mothership and you insist on being the driver. If it catered to your needs then it could be destroyed so it asks you to sit quietly and enjoy the ride. That doesn't make it an inferior being at all. You are the inferior being because you have never even seen another lifeform besides the one's on earth. The very fact that it's here means it's superior. That fact should be apparent.
Have you seen other life forms besides whats already on earth?..
The fact that it`s here..
Could mean it was too dumb to get gas,at an interplanetary gas station and now it`s stuck here..
And..It`s needy..
I don`t want dumb needy aliens in my life,that will die if I don`t do what they say..
The point I am trying to make is that God wants us to trust him.
The fact is that we as humans give each other faith all the time, why can't God ask the same?
I know humans exist..I have no idea if God exists..
God can`t ask anything if he doesn`t exist..
I`m not going to take your word for the existance of God..
Even though I know you mean well..
Your at a stale mate with non believers,until you can provide Real Solid Proof..
That`s the reality of it..
........................................
...OUTLAW
No. You clearly don't understand the golden rule. It has NOTHING to do with what people deserve.
If I toture people to death, I should be tortured. That's why I don't torture people, not because no one deserves to be tortured, but because I know that I wouldn't want to be tortured. I think the Golden Rule is being misinterpreted by people like EP. It IS about who deserves what. The reference point is human empathy. If you torture people enough eventually you are going to be tortured (take Gaddafi for instance) or maybe you will die without justice, but Justice will eventually be served somehow because it's not just a human creation. It's an actual force that works through us and all things. Hitler killed himself because he knew that if he was found alive it wasn't going to be pretty. Justice finds a way to serve itself, but it's best directed by focused intelligence instead of being applied by acts of God.
-Sab
If I toture people to death, I should be tortured.
Maybe in the perverted world of theistic morality but not in my world.
If I toture people to death, I should be tortured.
To death? You left that part out.
Anyway, No, you shouldn't be. You should be dealt with justly. If you make your wife cry, that doesn't mean she has license to make you cry. An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind.
I think the Golden Rule is being misinterpreted by people like EP. It IS about who deserves what.
Please, stop making up stuff. The golden rule doesn't say anything about who deserves what, you are making that up out of thin air. It's amazing that people like you keep saying how others misunderstand the Bible when a large portion of what you claim it says...it doesn't actually say unless you make a ton of stuff up.
But, since you think it says a lot more than it does, let's just point out that the person thinking this ALSO thinks the Torah talk about genetics, slavery is OK and thinks that cutting off baby foreskins = gravity because God.
Justice finds a way to serve itself, but it's best directed by focused intelligence instead of being applied by acts of God.
So you are saying humans do a better job of dispensing justice than God? I can agree with that since 1) god is fictional and 2) see #1.
Have you seen other life forms besides whats already on earth?..
Good morning Outlaw. Do you believe that scientists have found the higgs boson or one like it? You have to be a theoretical physicist to be able demonstrate how they are able to know this by a ratio of 99.99%. Do you require faith that this particle exists if you choose not to be a theoretical physicist? The answer is no, you can understand the process enough to have an informed opinion. However you cannot demonstrate it to just anyone could you?
The same could be said for higher life whether that be in space or in different dimensions (governments have budgets for both). We have enough information to determine that they exist, we do. If you say that we don't (because we have not "seen" them) then you are doing the same thing that ignorant creationists do. They will say that since the higgs boson has a 99.99% chance of being real that they can squease in that gap and say it may not be real, which in essence intellectually irresponsible. Just because we are not aware of higher life in the way we think it should be in no way means that it doesn't exist or that we shouldn't act like it does. All it means is that we are required to search it out, it's not going to just fall in our laps one day, at least I don't think so.
Could mean it was too dumb to get gas,at an interplanetary gas station and now it`s stuck here..
And..It`s needy..
If this were possible then it would have already happened. The fact that is has not is a large indicator of morality being present beyond humanity proving higher life is not only possible it's in action all around us. There IS higher life out there, why are we not it's slaves? Simply because that's not allowed. There is a "prime directive" running as we speak and that's a good description for God. It's just like when Captain James Cook came to Hawaii. He didn't tell the natives that there was no God, he said that HE WAS GOD. Only when he showed himself unable to control the weather did the natives realize he was a fraud and then they killed him. Space is the final frontier, it's the new "across the sea." For a long time people were told that "across the sea" meant certain death in the mouths of dragons, but we crossed it and then we populated those lands. The same will happen for us in regards to space and the universe, Roddenberry's future for us was not terribly far fetched.
Your at a stale mate with non believers,until you can provide Real Solid Proof..
I don't believe I am at a stalemate, but I would take that from the unbelievers, but they won't even give me that. I think that there has always been evidence within the mind of man that has always been in connection with God, if that mind chooses to do so.
-Sab
So you are saying humans do a better job of dispensing justice than God? I can agree with that since 1) god is fictional and 2) see #1.
No, I am saying that God always intended to use humans to dispense justice, but when we fail in that directive it's equalized by God. It's better if we just do our job in the first place.
-Sab
