Cofty, I hope not, because one would not be making a completely informed decision if they were letting their emotions (i.e. reactionary motivation) influence their decision. The result would be that in order to justify their decision (cognitive dissonance), they would have to engage in rationalization. I see that going on with some ExJw atheists, although not all.
Theists lumped into the same category
by Christ Alone 67 Replies latest jw friends
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Christ Alone
There are some "angry at god" former JWs who are not atheists but it is just as big a mistake to see all atheists the same as it is to lump all believers together.
I totally agree, Cofty. I guess my question is why does it seem to be larger here than in other religious organizations? But I do see your point in that when it's been such a struggle and questioning process to get out of the organization, this would also cause you to question belief too.
I was talking to a pastor the other day about JWs. It was interesting because he was telling me that he stopped answering the door when JWs called because the conversation never went anywhere. He would bring out his bible and they bible wouldn't match theirs, so he just gave up. Anyway, we started talking about JWs that leave and he was saying that he's met very few that leave and actually learn what the Bible actually says about Jesus. I told him that close to 90% of the JWs that I've met that have left have stopped all belief in God. He was shocked. We had a long conversation about it. He asked "Why?" and I could give some answers (close to yours, cofty) but nothing conclusive.
I think cofty's answer is important. I too examined my belief in God closely after leaving, but I came to a far differenct conclusion that many other exJWs. I questioned everything from the Bible to evolution to belief in God in general. For myself, I found that I didn't even know who God was. I only had the JW perspective of God, and whether you believe the Bible or not, it does not fit the Bible's concept of God. At least that is the conclusion I came to.
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Christ Alone
CA - Francis Collins and Kenneth Miller have done a lot to demonstrate that somebody can be a believer and a good scientist. Unfortunately most believers who claim to hold that position are not good at respecting the boundaries.
Again, I have fallen into that category of not respecting boundaries SO many times. It's been a huge learning curve for me. Being raised as a JW, I was taught that anyone that did not believe as I believed was wrong, and led by Satan. Learning to respect boundaries, and not only accept differences but actually to celebrate them has been somewhat of an epiphany to me.
Not to take this thread of topic, but I have a quick question. A few days or a week ago I brought up the name Antony Flew. You said that he was a weak example. I guess the idea is that he lost his mind later in life and let the Christians take over. Is this how you feel? I must admit that when I read his book "There is a God: How the World's Most Notorious Atheist Changed His Mind", I did not get the impression of a man that was senile or suffering from some form of dementia. I've read some of the accusations, but I also read from Flew himself that the accusations were not true. Was this what you meant when you said that Flew is a weak example?
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cofty
For me it was understanding the difference between the JW "ransom" doctrine and the NT teaching about grace that led me straight into chrisitian faith.
The road through that to atheism was not simple and definitely not based on an emotional reaction.
Most JWs actually know very little christianity. They have a strawman version in their imagination.
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Christ Alone
Cofty, you have been unique in my view in that you went to Christianity before becoming an atheist. That's very interesting to me. Sort of unique as far as I've seen.
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cofty
There does seem to be a lot of confusion around Flew's conversion. Some of what I read about it left me feeling sad for him. I read an interview with him where he was terribly confused and couldn't remember colleagues he had collaberated with. Maybe he converted before he lost his mental powers I don't know.
From what I read he seemed to be impressed by fine-tuning arguments.
To be honest if Dawkins and Harris became christians tommorow it wouldn't make the slightest difference to my position.
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cofty
you went to Christianity before becoming an atheist
Many times believers have told me I couldn't really have been a true christian but I know otherwise. If I wasn't genuine then there is no such thing as a genuine christian.
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NoStonecutters
Christ Alone, I don't know about the JWs, but Christendom tends to view Satan as directly leading non-believers, whereas, a more accurate way of looking at it might be that evil, not being any kind of substance itself but the absence of good, is leading people. The former provokes strawmen arguments from people. It's a lot easier to demonstrate that evil exists as opposed to trying to demosntrate that Satan exists.
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Christ Alone
To be honest if Dawkins and Harris became christians tommorow it wouldn't make the slightest difference to my position.
I think I respect that more than anything. If you are only believing or not believing a certain way because your "heros" are that way, then you cannot say that you've reached your conclusions based on research and logic.
However... how crazy would it be if Dawkins actually became an evangelical Christian?!? It would blow your mind!
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Christ Alone
a more accurate way of looking at it might be that evil, not being any kind of substance itself but the absence of good, is leading people.
I can follow that to a point... But I don't believe that atheists are evil because of their conclusions. I think they are wrong...yes. But an absence of GOOD? No, I don't follow that.