Theists lumped into the same category

by Christ Alone 67 Replies latest jw friends

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  NewChapter

  Personally I doubt that about many. No one is going to admit that they stopped believing in God because of the acts of an organization

  I don't think this is a fair conclusion to jump to, CA. First of all, because it completely invalidates, and nearly calls a person a liar. It is an assumption, and a person telling another person what their true motivation is. Nobody here is qualified to do such a thing.

  Cofty turned Baptist (I think) after leaving JW's, but I was involved in many religions before becoming a JW. In fact, from that list in the OP, I've been most of them at some point.

  Also, I was not upset with the organization at all, when I concluded there was no evidence for a god. I didn't even know I was coming to such a conclusion until I finally did. Then it felt like a lightbulb moment, but in retrospect, I realized it was something I had been working out for quite some time. I was not upset with the organization until much later, when I saw the damage they were doing. I went from feeling like they were just misguided, to believing they were purposely being misled. But that played no role in my shedding god belief.

  I think for a JW to free themself, it takes a huge amount of critical thinking. It takes real exposure and vulnerability. It's not the same as going from Baptist to Catholic, or Methodist to 'spiritual', but an honest and brutal reexamination of the ideas held dear. ALL of them, not just the religious ones. Once critical thinking has kicked in to that level, then no belief is safe. It keeps going until the very existence of god is considered. That, in my opinion, is what leads exJW's to atheism. They keep up the critical thinking until they get to the core.

  For me, and the many religions and spiritual minds I've had, the only common denominator was a god. It was time to study out that god, and I didn't find him/her.
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  Christ Alone

  First of all, because it completely invalidates, and nearly calls a person a liar. It is an assumption, and a person telling another person what their true motivation is. Nobody here is qualified to do such a thing.

  I see your point and that's fair. It was just my inner voice talking. That's why I said " I'll give them the benefit of the doubt, however. I just see a larger ratio of JWs and Mormons becoming atheists compared to other ex members." It's not an accusation or assumption. More of a pondering over "Why?". And I DO realize that everyone has a different story and reason for coming to their conclusions. I used to go around saying that exJWs tend to throw the baby out with the bathwater. I see why that's not accurate in many cases. But I really do personally feel that it's accurate in SOME cases. My pondering is mostly about why it seems that exJW's become atheists far more than people that leave other religious organizations.

  I think cofty's point was the best so far. Because of having to struggle so much with belief in the JW organization and question all of their beliefs, they also include EVERYTHING in that questioning process, including God. I'm no different. I just came to a different conclusion than some others.
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  NewChapter

  I used to go around saying that exJWs tend to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

  Just a heads-up. Everytime I hear this metaphor, it makes me want to kick a puppy. LOL

  **disclaimer: no puppies were hurt in the creation of this post. Keep puppies safe. Don't use the baby/bathwater metaphor.
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  sizemik

  It's good to be aware of the differences but I see a huge danger in the constant application of these labels. Labels give differentiation but they also invariably over-generalise, thereby creating a prejudicial assumption which is often totally innaccurate. We then have an impenetrable barrier of bias to meaningful communication. It's nothing but an error of laziness.

  I would rather folks simply confine themselves to the content and merits of each individual argument . . . and avoid making value judgements according to labels at all. Some of the recent threads have failed purely for this reason.
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  Phizzy

  I have charted my journey on a few posts. But it may be pertinent. I woke up to fundamental errors in WT teaching that caused me to stop DtoD preaching.

  I then began to examine the religion, its history as well as its doctrines, it ALL fell apart, I had been lied to all my life, all the people I trusted to guide me had fed me crap.

  I determined not to be caught again. You know, "Fool me once...." But how not to be caught ? I had to examine each claim properly.

  But, first, I was moved to try the simple faith method. I got down on my knees and wept and prayed to Jesus for guidance.

  Nothing. I gave it time too, several weeks and lots of prayer. Nothing.

  I then thought I would search for the right religion, but how would I know, would it perhaps not be christian ? I thought I had better have a close look at the Bible as that was the handbook of christians, the Bible did not stand up to scrutiny, worse, it proved to be a COMPLETE dud !

  The other religions had nothing of greater worth to offer, just fictional myth and superstition.

  I then began the quest to prove that "God" or whatever existed. I could find no proof.

  I decided my life would not be spent chasing something that sprang from the imagination of men but claimed to be real.

  But, that does not make me a rabid anti-theist or even a 100% atheist. If there is a Supreme Being then great, no problem for me, but I do not find his/her/its absence at this point in time to be irksome, I do not need this entity in my life in any way, in fact I kind of suspect if God does turn up it may cause me more pain than pleasure.

  The point is that "god" is a total irrelevance, a superfluity, uneeded, he does not matter, even if he were real ! That is the point for us unbelievers, we do not need him !

  But, please carry on you who believe, it is no problem for me, as long as you hurt no one, then live your life as you wish.

  But, as the O.Post hints, and as we have been trying to establish on a number of threads, there are many shades of belief and of unbelief, and we can all live and let live.

  Just, please, do not try to fool me, I will scrutinise your claims, if they are subjective they mean nothing to me, if they have no solid, testable proof, they mean nothing to me, you may as well claim the Moon is made of cheese.
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  elderelite

  I would respectfully point out that this is derailed a bit. It wasnt framed as catagories of atheiest, it was framed as different types of theiests.
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  sizemik

  I used to go around saying that exJWs tend to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

  I'm a bit like cofty and NC . . . I spent more than two years pursuing other forms of Christianity. I prayed more during that period than I ever did as a JW . . . many times through tears of desperation.

  I toted that bathwater around with me the whole time . . . it was only when I finally realised there was no baby, that I threw it out.
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  NewChapter

  it was only when I finally realised there was no baby, that I threw it out.

  *CRINGE*! LOL
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  still thinking

  My pondering is mostly about why it seems that exJW's become atheists far more than people that leave other religious organizations.

  CA...how do you know this? Do you have some statistics on atheists that I haven't seen? Most atheists don't even tell anyone they are atheists. Apart from here I don't discuss it with people. I don't write it on any forms.

  Does it only seem that way because you don't know?

  I am an ex catholic...never baptised a JW. I also explored many other religions before exploring JW's. They were the last one on my list. I had searched many avenues before coming to my position that there simply isn't any evidence that god is real.

  Good opening post by the way. But to me it makes no difference if you believe in creationism, evolution, etc because the underlying belief is the same. It is one of the many gods that I don't believe is real. So I'm not too concerned about arguing semantics of whether the god is christian, muslim, hindu, greek or any of the 3,000 odd gods that have been worshipped throughout the history of mankind. There is no evidence that one is more real than another. The fact that many hold their beliefs so strongly is very much real...but the belief itself?....when you dig deep into your own belief and honestly ask what it is based on. That's when the answers get tricky.

  I started a thread here a while ago when I was seriously questioning myself to see how others knew for sure their god was real. Because after being brutally honest with myself I had come up with nothing. Well, after goodness knows how many pages...there was no clear answer. I think tec was the only one who had anything tangable to support her belief when she said she hears. But even that could not be proved. I had hoped someone was going to offer something that would make me reconsider and ask myself a new question to hold onto my belief. But it didn't happen. I couldn't justify praying to what I felt was an imaginary creature.
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  still thinking

  CA Flew did not write that book on his own..it was co authored by Roy Vargehese (spelling?). Vargehese is somewhat a militant christian. LOL Ok, that's my take on him. But he is very outspoken and involved in religion and religous speaking. He has written a number of books himself.

  It has been argued that Vargehse wrote most of that book and Flew really just ok'd it. Because of Flews mental health at the time the book was written and the fact that he had done a complete turn around from what he has stated his entire life.

  Also, at the very most, all Flew would confirm was that he might be a Deist. He admitted that there 'might' be a supernatural force behind the beginning of the universe as we know it. But didn't know what that was. He still adamantly denied being a theist or that there was some sort of personal god.