by Ethos 529 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Ethos - Why do most of your responses in this thread contain personal attacks and insults against those who disagree with you?
Is it because you are uncomfortable with your untenable position?
Jeffro - I have bookmarked your blog, its an excellent summary of the facts. I didn't read about this subject until long after I left the Watchtower. Somebody gave me a copy of Carl Jonson's book. The first time you see what the bibe says about the 70 years in context the WT error is immediately obvious.
Ethos:
Alas, I will now prove what I have said conclusively.
Ooooohhh... the suspense...
Ethos -
Alas, I will now prove what I have said conclusively.
Go on then. I'm waiting. My popcorn is fresh and I'm ready to munch.
Okay, I will try to make this as simple and as easy to understand as possible.
It has been said by many that the servitude has nothing to do with the "exile". Many who adhere to the 609 chronology maintain this viewpoint, that there exile, the paying off of sabbaths, and the servitude are all separate, unrelated events. I have shown you various Bible commentaries and scholars whose credentials and exegetical expertise far exceed that of my own and that of Jeffro's and likely everyone on this forum, but this has still not been sufficient proof for some. So, I will again examine the "servitude" but in an afresh manner, one of strict relation to exegetical methods that can be deciphered from the text and the text alone.
Jeremiah 25:11 "And all this land must become a devastated place, an object of astonishment, and these nations will have to serve (`abad) the king of Babylon seventy years.”’
In Strong's exhaustive concordance, entry H5647 it delineates an outline of the Biblical usage of the word used in Jeremiah 25:11 as the following:
1) to work, serve
a) (Qal)
1) to labour, work, do work
2) to work for another, serve another by labour
3) to serve as subjects
4) to serve (God)
5) to serve (with Levitical service)
b) (Niphal)
1) to be worked, be tilled (of land)
2) to make oneself a servant
c) (Pual) to be worked
d) (Hiphil)
1) to compel to labour or work, cause to labour, cause to serve
2) to cause to serve as subjects
e) (Hophal) to be led or enticed to serve
So how are we to arrive at an accurate understanding of what is implied by servitude here? Simple: we look at other usages of this verb in parallel passages that relate to the 70-year servitude when it a): is specifically referenced in Jeremiah b): in relation to the nation of Judah c): in relation to the nation of Babylon d): how it is understood by the Jews of this epoch
Here are a few:
Jeremiah 5:19 “ And you must say to them, ‘Just as YOU have left me and have gone serving ( `abad) a foreign god in YOUR land, so YOU will serve ( `abad) strangers in a land that is not YOURS.’”
Jeremiah 16:13 “ And I will hurl YOU out from off this land into the land that YOU yourselves have not known, neither YOUR fathers, and there YOU will have to serve ( `abad ) other gods day and night, because I shall not give YOU any favor. ”’
Jeremiah 17:4 “ And you let loose, even of your own accord, from your hereditary possession that I had given you. I also will make you serve ( `abad) your enemies in the land that you have not known; for as a fire YOU people have been ignited in my anger. To time indefinite it will keep kindled.”
Jeremiah 40:9 “ And Ged·a·li′ah the son of A·hi′kam the son of Sha′phan proceeded to swear to them and to their men, saying: “Do not be afraid of serving ( `abad) the Chal·de′ans. Continue dwelling in the land and serve ( `abad) the king of Babylon, and it will go well with YOU
I believe this has made it abundantly clear that such a servitude will be realized “in a land that is not yours” (cf. 5:19); after the Judeans are “hurled out from off this lead then they will will “serve” other gods day and night (cf. 6:13); Jehovah says “I also will make you serve your enemies in a land that you have not known” (cf. 17:14) And lastly, the connected to the “dwelling in the land of the Chaldeans where they will “serve the king of Babylon” (cf. 40:9)
A form of the very Hebrew word used in all these passages is used in, you guessed it, 2 Chronicles 36:20 which says “Furthermore, he carried off those remaining from the sword captive to Babylon, and they came to be servants ( `ebed a form of ` abad) to him and his sons until the royalty of Persia began to reign.”
We can use the passages in 2 Chronicles 36 since they specifically attribute these events to the prophecies contained therein Jeremiah. So after reading and looking at all the usages of the Hebrew word translated “serve” would you maintain that this was simply a servitude referencing the world power/dominion of Babylon over all the nations?
Lastly, notice when the Judeans “came to be servants” to the king Babylon. Not in 609 BCE, the supposed starting point of the entire servitude, but only after they had been carried into Babylon as exiles. From the usage of the word translated “serve” and the context as well as our ability to reason, infer, and adduce I agree that the primary definition of “slave; to force by labor”, is what is applied here.
So here’s some quick questions for Jeffro and AnnoMaly:
1): With regard to what locality is the Hebrew word “abad” used throughout the book of Jeremiah in specific relation to Babylon and the 70 year servitude?
2): When does Ezra, who references the passages in Jeremiah, say that the Judeans “came to be servants in Babylon”?
3: Since the passage says they were servants UNTIL Cyrus began to reign, can you please explain to us when did the first regnal year of Cyrus commence, and if this time interval does or does not fit within the supposed ending point of 539 B.C.E.?
4: Do you disregard the precedent and therefore the basis for the 70 year servitude being linked to exile by the following scholars, Bible translators, historians, and the like?
Who threatened the vengeance of God and 70 years captivity, which he called the sabbaths or rest of the land, Jer 25:11." - The Geneva Study Bible
Commenting on 2 Chronicles 36:21 "To fulfill the word of the Lord - See Jeremiah 25:9, Jeremiah 25:12; Jeremiah 26:6, Jeremiah 26:7; Jeremiah 29:12." -- Clarke's Commentary on the Bible
The country was an empty wasteland for seventy years to make up for the years of Sabbath rest [ a ] that the people had not kept." -- New Century Version
God's Word Translation: "This happened so that the LORD's words spoken through Jeremiah would be fulfilled. The land had its years of rest and was made acceptable [again]. While it lay in ruins, [the land had its] 70 years of rest.
He transferred the people of the Jews to Babylon, and destroyed the temple which Solomon had built. And in the Babylonian banishment the people passed 70 years. And according as God had, by the prophet Jeremiah, foretold that the people should be led captive to Babylon, in like manner He signified beforehand that they should also return into their own land after 70 years.These 70 years then being accomplished.." "—Theophilus to Autolycus, Book I, Chapter XXV.
Do you know what the word 'banishment' means? Banish: to expel from or relegate to a country or place by authoritative decree; condemn to exile: so yes, the Jews were in exile for 70 years according to this historian
"The most famous exile that befell the Hebrews , then—to wit, when they were led captive by Nabuchodonosor king of Babylon— lasted 70 years , as Jeremias had prophesied. Berosus the Babylonian, moreover, makes mention of Nabuchodonosor. And after the 70 years of captivity, Cyrus became king of the Persians at the time of the 55th Olympiad, as may be ascertained from the Bibliothecæ of Diodorus and the histories of Thallus and Castor, and also from Polybius and Phlegon, and others besides these, who have made the Olympiads a subject of study. For the date is a matter of agreement among them all. And Cyrus then, in the first year of his reign, which was the first year of the 55th Olympiad, effected the first partial restoration of the people by the hand of Zorobabel, with whom also was Jesus the son of Josedec, since the period of 70 years was now fulfilled, as is narrated in Esdra the Hebrew historian. --- Fathers of the Third Century: Gregory Thaumaturgus, Dionysius the Great, Julius Africanus, Anatolius, and Minor Writers, Methodius, Arnobius
“The people had not allowed the land to enjoy the rest God commanded (Lev. 25:1-7; 26:32-35), so now it would have a seventy-year “Sabbath” (Jer 25:11-12; 29:10-14; Dan. 9:1-3) – The Wiersbe Commentary
“God had commanded Israel to observe a Sabbath for the land, allowing it to rest every seven years (Exodus 23:10-11). The people of Judah had denied the land its Sabbaths over a period of some 490 years, meaning that they “owed” the land 70 Sabbaths, and to fulfill seventy years God took the years back during the Babylonian exil e .”—Guzik Bible
“2 Chronicles 36:21 explains the role of the Exile in God’s purpose by interpreting the prophecy of Jeremiah in light of the warning in Lev. 26:34f. Daniel 9 also refers to Jeremiah’s prophecy (v.2); based on the warnings in Lev. 26:18, 34f – The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia
Ethos - I don't know if it's my browser but your post is blank? Is this the sign of Jonah? LOL
I have shown you various Bible commentaries and scholars whose credentials and exegetical expertise far exceed that of my own and that of Jeffro's and likely everyone on this forum, but this has still not been sufficient proof for some.
As was shown you, many of the commentators and expositors you quoted count the 70 years exile from Nebuchadnezzar's accession year, when Daniel and the other young nobles were taken to Babylon. They do not count the 70 years exile from Jerusalem's destruction. These sources (and your lengthy rebuttal) do not help you establish that,
a) the 70 years servitude only began with the deportation resulting from Jerusalem's destruction,
b) that this 70 years could only have been completed in 537 BCE,
c) that the exiles did indeed return in 537 BCE.
The discussion cannot progress until you have satisfactorily addressed these long-standing issues.
It has been said by many that the servitude has nothing to do with the "exile". Many who adhere to the 609 chronology maintain this viewpoint, that there exile, the paying off of sabbaths, and the servitude are all separate, unrelated events. I have shown you various Bible commentaries and scholars whose credentials and exegetical expertise far exceed that of my own and that of Jeffro's and likely everyone on this forum, but this has still not been sufficient proof for some. So, I will again examine the "servitude" but in an afresh manner, one of strict relation to exegetical methods that can be deciphered from the text and the text alone.
Separate? Yes. Unrelated? No, no one has claimed that. I have stated several times that per Jeremiah 25:12 and Jeremiah 29:10, that once the seventy years ended, then arrangements were made for the Jews to return to their homeland.
In Strong's exhaustive concordance, entry H5647 it delineates an outline of the Biblical usage of the word used in Jeremiah 25:11 as the following:
Ethos next attempts to imply that the Hebrew abad means exile, which is simply not the case. The term appears hundreds of times in the Old Testament, and it means labour or to serve. It never means exile. Ethos selects a smattering of verses (such as Jeremiah 5:19) where it is used in reference to Jews 'serving in a foreign land', but in those verses, it only ever means serve, and the foreign land part is always from entirely separate Hebrew words.
The Hebrew term for exile is derived from Strongs H1540 (galah [which in English seems a fitting word for Ethos]). Click here for examples of where the Hebrew word for exile is used in the OT, including the taking of exiles to Babylon.
In particular, Ethos attempts to misuse 2 Chronicles 36:20 to create a strawman about a period of time between the fall of Babylon and Cyrus' first regnal year. However, the context of "him and his sons" in the passage quite specifically refers to Babylonian rulers, who were quite dead after the fall of Babylon. The verse does not say until the first year of Cyrus.
2 Chronicles 36:21:
Furthermore, he [Nebuchadnezzar] carried off those remaining from the sword captive [Strongs 1540] to Babylon, and they came to be servants [Strongs H5647] to him and his sons until the royalty of Persia began to reign;
Once again, the Jews were 'servants' (abad) in Babylon only until Nebuchadnezzar's 'sons' (descendants) were killed. But they were still exiles (galah) in Babylon until they returned in 538.
Answer the questions. Also please answer this in reference to Jeremiah 40:9: Why would the Jews be afraid of "serving" the king of Babylon? Since this refers to the dominion of Babylon and nothing but. Notice I never said the word means exile, but that it means to labor. Therefore, even AFTER Nabonidus was killed they continued to labor until Cyrus excercised his decree in his first regnal year, as the scripture says. It is adduced from the context and the usage that a): they would realize this 70 year servitude or labor in a foreign land and b): they came to be "servants" only after being exiled to Babylon.
"Serving in a foreign land" is the same as "banishment" which correlates to the exile. Poor, poor arguments.
Yes, you can try to discredit the historians, but you can not discredit the credentials of the MODERN scholars, translations, and commentaries/dictionaries I ALSO quoted. I think the true meaning of servitude has been explained thoroughly and clearly to anyone without prejudice. All other objections raised (of actual merit) will be answered when I'm able to post,sce I am 1 away from my limit.
EDIT: Jeffro will continue to say I have provided no evidence, but would anyone reasonable the most respected scholars and their quoted statements can not be used as evidencem That the views of the early church fathers is not evidence? That a delineated outline of the usage of the word serve is not evidence? If you will not accept any of the aforementioned references and sources as even MINUTE supporting evidence for what I've stated, then its clear to all thinking persons you're being obstinate and absurdly unreasonable.
Yes, you can try to discredit the historians, but you can not discredit the credentials of the MODERN scholars, translations, and commentaries/dictionaries I ALSO quoted.
You merely select a few sources that superficially seem to support your view (though none support 607), but you have not provided any evidence.
Answer the questions
I've already answered the questions. If you don't have the comprehension skills to deduce which parts of my response relate to which questions, that's your problem.
That a delineated outline of the usage of the word serve is not evidence?
Your selective quoting of verses that contain abad proved nothing at all. Someone can be serving regardless of where they are. There is an entirely separate word for exile. People can abad if they are galah or if they are not galah.
