by palmtree67 699 Replies latest jw friends
Perhaps you would find it in your kind heart to restate those constructive ideas, dear Palm (peace to you!), just so's we're all on the same page? I mean, I think it would be helpful because I'm not sure just which ideas you're speaking of - there were many...
Again, peace to you!
YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,
SA
AGuest - do you ever tire of dredging every possible itty bit of twist on everything? If you so wish to extract a single idea from a very simple concept (and yes the 'Marketplace of ideas' is it in a nutshell - well spotted) and bugger with it seventy times seven such that by the time you've finished you've spun a whole fairytale about how measuring must be done with YOUR spiritual guide then I can't stop you but just have to sit there and accept that you don't want to converse , you want to perform. For all your words and all your rhetoric - you can't see past yourself sometimes.
The metaphor was not about how we measure, nor who our peers are or should be , or any such other tortured subtlety; it was simply about the ability to disassociate oneself from your ideas idea such that you can reject it when the time comes. Too many people sink themselves into an idea and won't let go and get passionate over bad ideas. Ideas that have integrity will rise to the top if allowed to be discussed and critiqued. Ideas that need the cover and protection of respect, reverance and mystery are somewhat intellectually weaker in my experience.
You also forget AG that I and most posters here used spiritual 'measuring sticks' for most of our lives. Always try and keep in mind there are few atheists/non-believers/doubters here who have always been such. The invitation is to benefit from our experiments with both sides - you might enjoy being an atheist :)
AGuest - do you ever tire of dredging every possible itty bit of twist on everything?
Sometimes yes, sometimes no, Q. Do you?
If you so wish to extract a single idea from a very simple concept (and yes the 'Marketplace of ideas' is it in a nutshell - well spotted) and bugger with it seventy times seven such that by the time you've finished you've spun a whole fairytale about how measuring must be done with YOUR spiritual guide then I can't stop you
You obviously think you can, else why the post? And I actually like the "Marketplace of Ideas" concept, but I don't often find it present in posts from you.
but just have to sit there and accept that you don't want to converse , you want to perform. For all your words and all your rhetoric - you can't see past yourself sometimes.
That is your take, Q. I actually believe the same as to you and some others. But so what: it's a [relatively] "free" discussion forum. What I like... or dislike... as I discern through your posts... about you... or any other(s) is, IMHO... absolutely irrelevant. At least, it should be, maturely speaking.
The metaphor was not about how we measure, nor who our peers are or should be , or any such other tortured subtlety; it was simply about the ability to disassociate oneself from your ideas idea such that you can reject it when the time comes.
Well, yes, that's one way of looking at it. I chose to take it further, though, and "dissect" the "weigh"(ing) process... and tools. I mean, if there's a flaw in THOSE... then, by default, there's going to be a flaw in the resultant deduction made BY them. Right?
Too many people sink themselves into an idea and won't let go and get passionate over bad ideas.
I agree. And while I might concede that that has occurred here, I'm not sure I would agree as to who it is that has done that.
Ideas that have integrity will rise to the top if allowed to be discussed and critiqued.
Which is an important truth that you often seem to miss: if allowed to be discussed... which, in at least one area you don't... and critiqued... which is not what occurs. I don't care what you and some others call it, it is NOT discussing and critiquing: it is bullying and attempting to censor and silence. C'mon, let's keep it real... and real honest.
Ideas that need the cover and protection of respect, reverance and mystery are somewhat intellectually weaker in my experience.
Ideas that NEED reverence and mystery are not only suspect in my book, but almost always, if not always, false. Those that ask for respect are not necessarily and perhaps never (though I don't think never is accurate; almost never, then).
You also forget AG that I and most posters here used spiritual 'measuring sticks' for most of our lives.
No, you did not. Because you didn't know... and still don't... what spiritual IS. You are using a definition created and fomented by MAN... to explain something of GOD, of the SPIRIT and not of the FLESH. But you keep trying to apply it TO that which is fleshly.
Always try and keep in mind there are few atheists/non-believers/doubters here who have always been such.
Of course there are, Q, and certainly a few here. A lot of atheists (here and outside) were former "believers" and after experiencing some reason for disillusion... made a different life-choice. I get that and respect that. I... don't have a problem with atheists. Never have. Even as a JW. They weren't really on my radar and screen and when they were, I didn't feel that I had any grounds... or authority... to judge them. Or anyone, for that matter. The same can't be said for many of the "religious", particular those who profess to be "christian." Most atheist I know, personally (and I met quite few in university/law school/at work) were never raised in or around ANY religion to begin with (or their spouses, who I also met, weren't). Even so, they seem to be able to relate to ME just a tad better to those who still tout religion - THAT they just don't get. We shared many a discussion... about belief as well as many other topics... and got along just fine. They would ask me what I believed, I would share it, and they would say, "Okay", or even "Cool!". No concern... or fear... or judgment... from them, though. Ever.
The invitation is to benefit from our experiments with both sides -
I have no problem with experiments, so long as they're civil, decent, and sans malice (and lies). I have no problem with experiments designed as "discussions" (although I don't necessarily like the deceit they are founded on). But I don't have a problem with what you believe... or don't believe. That opposite, however, is not the case. "YOU" have the problem(s) - not me.
you might enjoy being an atheist :)
I might. I very seriously highly doubt that either of will ever find out, though. As EP would say... "not very likely." I would say it's impossible, but just don't have the energy for the responses that would ensure. And so I'll just say, hey... the fat lady hasn't actually sang yet, so...
All I would ask is that you respect MY right... and will... to choose if that ever occurs... or won't... and let me be me in the meantime.
A slave of Christ,
SA
Excellent...so you are NOT only addressing the house of Israel and all that go with, on some of your threads. (Whatever that means)
Wonderful...it is not a private party...so we are all welcome to contribute and discuss and if we feel like it, disagree with what you say.
Fabulous...you want everyone to understand what you write. So maybe you can support what you say with something more than visions of seraphs washing your feet and looking at you adoringly and hearings that no one else hears. And the bible that most admit is full of lying scribes.
I'm glad you clarified this Aguest. I now feel much more welcome to discuss on your threads and no longer feel univited by what seemed to be a specific invite ie. to the house of Israel (whoever they are). And I clearly misunderstood when you have said "if it wasn't meant FOR you why do you respond". Because it is meant for everyone.
And awesome...when you are telling people we can choke on it, but not so much that we go blue, you are realling meaning that you care about us all because that's how you would treat a child that doesn't understand what you say, we of course let them choke, but not so much that they die....a bit like beating a slave unconscious, but not until they die. Because that is the loving thing to do.
So I take it we will no longer hear you say that if it wasn't posted FOR you why do you respond? When we are posting on your threads ADDRESSED to the house of israel and those that go with. Because obviously this is an open forum and no one dictates who gets to post on a thead.
I feel so much better now that thats cleared up....
And awesome...when you are telling people we can choke on it, but not so much that we go blue, you are realling meaning that you care about us all because that's how you would treat a child that doesn't understand what you say, we of course let them choke, but not so much that they die....a bit like beating a slave unconscious, but not until they die. Because that is the loving thing to do.
Now why would you continue with this Still, when it was explained a) what the metaphor meant, and b) that your understanding of it is wrong?
Why?
Peace,
tammy
Continue?
Has the discussion ended?
There has been no clarity about what letting people choke until they are blue in the face...but not too much means.
Maybe YOU are clear about it's meaning because you are able to read aguests mind and explain her metaphors. But I am not. I am trying to make sense of it.
A truce between atheists and non atheists?
How can there be a truce when there is no war?
Atheists on this board appear to have, as their primary means of entertainment, the pastime of attacking the beliefs of others while demanding (as if they didn't already have it) the freedom to believe what they want.
I've got good news for the atheists on this board.
You are free! You can believe what you want! We don't care! No-one cares what you believe! And what's more, we'll defend your right to believe what you want.
But you're not happy with that, are you? We've told you that till you're blue in the face. You just derive pleasure in attacking the beliefs of those who believe in the divine, and attacking any who stand up for their beliefs.
So you get a kick out of jeering at other people's faith. We understand that. Even though you'd be raising the rafters with your protests if anyone attacked your lack of belief (which they don't) it suits you to try to tear down the beliefs of others.
Seems a poor sort of entertainment to me.
Shrugs - sometimes there are no arguments that can be made with someone who has come to the table with only non-negotiable terms. Still the board had simmered down a fair bit so at least its a bit bubblier, it seems to thrive on the odd bushfire.
There has been no clarity about what letting people choke until they are blue in the face...but not too much means.
See Aguests posts 9818, page 12 and her post 9810, pg 11... referring to my post at the very top of page 11.
Maybe YOU are clear about it's meaning because you are able to read aguests mind and explain her metaphors. But I am not. I am trying to make sense of it.
I cannot read her mind. I just understood, and so explained.
Peace,
tammy
Excellent...so you are NOT only addressing the house of Israel and all that go with, on some of your threads.
Where I state that, I actually am, Still...
(Whatever that means)
Well, no, I don't expect you to understand that... either way... or much of anything else I state. Even one-word statements, like "peace"... or "chile'", so...
Wonderful...it is not a private party...so we are all welcome to contribute and discuss and if we feel like it, disagree with what you say.
Ummmm... not sure that's accurate. I mean, it is a public forum, but when a specific person or persons are addressed, for another to "crash" and then take offense that what is stated is not compliantly conformed to what THEY want or how THEY want it to be stated... But, again, that was probably too many words for you, so...
Fabulous...you want everyone to understand what you write.
Ummmm... you REALLY missed my point(s) on THAT. Methinks you're confusing me with dear NC. Yes, go back and check, luv, 'cause I think you are. Not surprised, though.
So maybe you can support what you say with something more than visions of seraphs washing your feet and looking at you adoringly and hearings that no one else hears.
Well, what do you have in mind? I mean, that's only one issue/vision (and trust me, they looked at you adoringly, too, when they washed YOUR feet - unfortunately, you didn't know how to appreciate that, so...)
And the bible that most admit is full of lying scribes.
Well, I only use the Bible for those who need to see it IN the Bible. As I've posted over... and over... and over... again. Matter of fact, I once posted something without using the Bible and you yourself called me to show YOU where it was in the Bible. I think you're confusing your own self...
I'm glad you clarified this Aguest.
I think you've misunderstood what I "clarified." Again, no surprise. Neither of us are the sharpest tools in the shed, so I can relate...
I now feel much more welcome to discuss on your threads and no longer feel univited by what seemed to be a specific invite ie. to the house of Israel (whoever they are).
Really? I am not sure you should, though. Again, go back and re-read what you "think" I stated. Because I think you've read it wrongly. I mean, I don't CARE if you do, but I think you should do so with the proper perspective: that the party isn't necessary FOR you (if you're not of that House, I mean)... and so try not to take offense if you're not treated as "honored" guest on it. But sure, come on and crash, if that's your thing... I won't bite you. Well, not first, anyway. I might inadvertently bite you back, though, and I apologize for that in advance.
And I clearly misunderstood when you have said "if it wasn't meant FOR you why do you respond". Because it is meant for everyone.
Oooh... you REALLY missed something there, Still. Really.
And awesome...when you are telling people we can choke on it, but not so much that we go blue, you are realling meaning that you care about us all because that's how you would treat a child that doesn't understand what you say,
Ummmm... I recall saying that the one choking just might go blue... so I'm not sure where you got the whole "not so much that 'we' go blue" part. And children don't crash parties, luv.
we of course let them choke, but not so much that they die....a bit like beating a slave unconscious, but not until they die. Because that is the loving thing to do.
What the... girl, the things that go on in YOUR... comprehension. Rather, what doesn't, but should, go on there.
If someone breaks in and crashes my party, grabs some delicacy not meant for them, then begins to choke (maybe because they're allergic and so asphixiating)... well, I (or another invited guest) might jump over quickly and administer a Heimlich. On the other hand, we MIGHT just continue OUR conversation for little longer... and see if they manage to cough it up themselves. But no, we wouldn't let them DIE. Not at the party. What the authorities choose to do with them after they're turned over, well... I mean, they DID crash, after all. You give a dance, you gotta pay the band. You're allergic to shellfish, crash a party where shellfish is being served, grab a handful of prawns and gulp them down... well, c'mon... you probably SHOULD choke. I mean, YOU know you're allergic to shellfish, but we might not know. Or care. Under the circumstances, I mean.
So I take it we will no longer hear you say that if it wasn't posted FOR you why do you respond?
Read, Still. Go back and read.
When we are posting on your threads ADDRESSED to the house of israel and those that go with. Because obviously this is an open forum and no one dictates who gets to post on a thead.
Not dictating, not at all. Just saying, if you crash another's party... you get served what's being served. Take it... or leave it (the thread). No one made you crash, no one makes you stay. I mean, if you don't LIKE what's served at a particular poster's parties... quit crashing that particular posters' parties! Need I say it... duh?
I feel so much better now that thats cleared up....
If you truly think you have that cleared up... well, all I can say is that I WAY overestimated you. Even still, Still.
Go back and re-read, Still. More than once, if you need to. If that what it takes for you to "get" what I stated. Because what you've opined here is OH so NOT what I posted.
A slave of Christ,
SA
