by Christ Alone 317 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
I really don't see any point in you joining in a discussion/debate.
Then don't.
All you really have to say is "God is the wonderful Spirit I made Him into in my mind. Absolutely no evidence, no matter how valid, can help me to grow."
This is what you see. But it has nothing to do with what I say.
Peace,
tammy
If you had said "You have to choose vegetables, or the outcome will be bad for you" . . . are you not taking away that "free-will?"
Not at all.
Do you know how many kids weight whether or not the consequence is worth whatever it is they want to do... and so choose what they want despite the consequence.
Parent: "Go partying and drinking with your buds... then not only will you be sick, you will be grounded."
Kid (to himself): "Well, there's this really awesome girl there and I don't want to look like a wuss by not drinking with her... I think she's worth getting sick for, and grounded. Or at least spending the night with her is worth it."
or...
Kid... "If I don't do my homework, I'm gonna fail this assignment, parents are gonna get a call... BUT... I'd really rather do.... (insert whatever here)"
Consequences don't take away from free will.
Peace,
tammy
How are you shown? Can you give me an example?
You and I have had this conversation many times. He tells me; He reminds me of something that makes what he tells me clear; he gives me understanding.
So... in spirit. Which you will not accept. So why are you asking?
now thats an oxymoron.
No it isn't. It is how one makes an educated guess.
Firstly....WOW! that's some statement.
A - its hardly the first time I've made it. B - where did you learn otherwise? Not from the written account.
Secondly....How did he show you?
You mean other than that there is no reason to even think that He did to begin with?
How did he 'confirm' it?
In spirit. By speaking as to what DID happen, to me.
No..you haven't explained anything...you have just made statements.
Please explain your statements...if you don't mind...
I have answered all of your questions. If there is something more that you want from me, you are going to need to be more specific.
Peace,
tammy
cofty, solid statements of yours and these set the stage for the further discussions about god's foreknowlefge.
you wrote: --I reject that God is OUTSIDE time-- You are right: because God exists IN time. The creator predates creation, therefore he has a LONGER existence then creation. But age can not be had without time. So Time must have existed as long as God, eternally. time can not have a beginning. Where misunderstandings come in is
That we as Humans think of time as a compulsory movement, a one way street. When people say time, they really mean MOVEMENT IN TIME. You clearly understand that when you say (in better words) my past is history, I am now, but the future chapters of the Lore of Cofty are yet to be written. We are embedded in a universe that is moving, expanding, perhaps internally orbiting against gravity since the big bang, and movement always involves time. so we are moving throught time. unlike god who IS in eternal time. His existencestretches eternally into the past and INTO THE FUTURE. He lives not in half eternity, the past only!
You wrote: time is one-dimensional. Yes, but so are each of the 3 space dimensions: namely: ---forward,--- left (if you are a (new ca) Democrat) and-- up. While we have some choice to move in all of the 3 dimensions of space, we only move one way --into the future-- in the 4st,---the time dimension, because we are part of the universe that started to move at the BB. To picture that model, think of the Creator alone in time everywhere, always. now think of him, using some energy, starting to grow an universe like an inflating balloon from zero, a singularity. That imaginary universe, for clarity, has only two space dimensions in that membrane. As the sphere expands, it moves THROUGH TIME, the all present, "stationary" eternal time that is germane to the CREATOR. think of time as the radius of that sphere. time at right angles to space.
So the Creator is already in our future, is watching with interest the next chapter of the Lore of Cofty beeing written. Does he have to dictate the text? not with free wiil. on beabeorean.com (sic) is an essay "Time and Space in the Bible" also on the "Bode Law", but thats another post. blessings and thanks
Secondly....How did he show you?
You mean other than that there is no reason to even think that He did to begin with?....tec
No....I meant....HOW DID HE SHOW YOU? You said he showed you. I am asking HOW.
How did he 'confirm' it?
In spirit. By speaking as to what DID happen, to me...tec
OK...that's pretty vague.
I have answered all of your questions. If there is something more that you want from me, you are going to need to be more specific.
Acutally, the point is....CAN YOU BE MORE SPECIFIC? You haven't answered anything.
If it is possible to know the future then we have a deterministic universe where quantum fluctuations will happen according to the starting conditions of the universe and are playing out exactly as planned/ordered. Humans are a fairly miniscule and irrelevant part of that deterministic universe and are a slave tothat determinism. With regard to the past our present fixes it into set deterministic state, what was must have been for now to be.
If a god exists with the capacity to know the future they have become devoid of free will themselves. Their foreknowledgemust include a knowledge of their future actions as well. A god who knows the end state of a system they interact with is forced to perform miracles, revelations, answers to prayers, no to interact during disasters and so on. This being knows whether he will answer before you ask and cannot chose to act otherwise lest he alter the future.
Such a being negates all divine freedom turning even himself into a slave , a slave held rigidly by observation and information. Once the photon is observed itcan no longer exist as a potentiality and go through both slits in the experiment but must only go through one. This brings the whole cosmic fairytale of xianity to the level of divine farce where god pretends to offer choice , redemption, responsibility and hope but in reality offers merely a script where he plays a central part as the surprised god reacting to human choices in eden and with Jesus. Such a god is doomed by sneaking an early peek at his christmas presents and in dooming himself he also fixes the universe so it must unfold a certain way, free will and quantum fluctuations be damned. What a bast*rd.
I think it may be a case of being able to predict so well that it borders on "omniscience", basically all-knowing in a practical sense.
It is important to diffrentiate between what is foreknown to what is preordained.
It seems that God does pre-ordaine certian things, such as the selection of elects to do His special works, it would seem if that was true that those people have "limited" free will, at least whenit comes to being "pre-selected".
Maybe he doesn't make guesses the he doesn't know the outcome for?
So.... there are things God couldn't guess the outcome for? Is he either so insecure or so chicken that he always has to be right?
I think it may be a case of being able to predict so well that it borders on "omniscience", basically all-knowing in a practical sense.
So, can God, guess/predict, before I am born, what I will eat for lunch on 11/30/2012 (tomorrow)? Is there any possibility he could be wrong or I could choose differently? If, it's practically omniscience, why not just call it that? What's the difference?
