by Christ Alone 317 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
I have read through all 10 pages and I reject the assumption of believers that god exists outside of time.
For the record, since I'm part of this conversation... I neither reject nor accept this belief. I do not know. So it is not part of any of my arguments.
Peace,
tammy
If god knows the future actions of every creature perfectly then he is not a personal god, his interactions with humans are a farce, there are no possibilities. All choices he presents are fraudulent.
That is what i don't like about the word 'omniscience'. (because it is supposed to mean the above, right?)
Peace,
tammy
But your point is not valid.
If God took an asteroid and set it in motion toward the earth, then your point is valid. Whatever that asteroid then does is on Him (in a straightforward analogy), because it has no control. It is going where God threw it.
But this is not the case with people. God created life, and then that life (us) controls what we do... what choices we make, and the consequences that follow those choices.
Why is it that I can see the other side of this (believers that foreknowledge does not take away free will) but Tec just defends the God of her making no matter what, and doesn't even try to see the other side of this?
Maybe this will help. By creating the universe, God did throw the asteroid at the earth in your example. He created something, knowing exactly what would happen. He created the conditions for the asteroid, no matter how many billions of years later, to crash into earth. Since He had foreknowledge, He easily saw the asteroid strike.
So say He saw that and tinkered a bit more with His creation so the asteroid misses earth 14 billions years later instead of smashing into it.
It's the point trying to be made by many here. Creating the lifeforms on this planet, knowing exactly what they will do, makes God responsible for Eve eating the apple or for Hitler killing the Jews. He created humans, and saw what would happen as he created them, then didn't change his creation to prevent such a thing. (Or maybe He created us with the intent that Eve eats the apple.) We can build a robot and program it to always choose the path we want it to take, then also program it to feel it has chosen that path. But since we built it with that program, we cannot say that the robot actually chose to kill the ex-wife.
Many here philosophize that our freewill is just a pretense if God created us and knows what we will do. I hope that clears that up for Tec (and others).
It is not a fact, it is a belief or a philosophy. But it is entirely different than saying God "knows" us so well that His guess of what we will always do is never wrong, making it knowledge more than a guess. That really is like "knowing" what the 52nd card will be because you saw all the others. You won't be wrong, but it is possible if someone tampered with the deck.
Why is it that I can see the other side of this (believers that foreknowledge does not take away free will) but Tec just defends the God of her making no matter what, and doesn't even try to see the other side of this?
Maybe becasue the other side is based on an assumption about God that I do not hold. So I am not going to pretend to hold onto that assumption, just so another argument can work.
I said earlier that I thought we were arguing apples and oranges.
Peace,
tammy
Back to the point I attempted to make earlier... if one's "guesses" are always correct, then what is the practical difference between knowing and guessing?
None. But your guess aren't always and will not in the future always be correct. There IS a practical difference.
It was a simple example of the larger thing. It is possible to know what someone else is going to do, even if only one choice such as the example I gave of my son (even if the person has the ability to prove you wrong)... and not take away from their free will TO prove you wrong.
You are guessing what your son is going to do.
Maybe becasue the other side is based on an assumption about God that I do not hold. So I am not going to pretend to hold onto that assumption, just so another argument can work.
Lots of people have lots of assumptions about God. You stepped into a debate where the ideas were already laid out that were being discussed and you did so without saying until much later how your ideas were different.
I said earlier that I thought we were arguing apples and oranges.
No. Not really. But, trying to use the word "know" to mean "guess" is trying to cross-breed apples and oranges with a chicken.
None. But your guess aren't always and will not in the future always be correct. There IS a practical difference.
You are correct.
But I just wanted to show how it was possible with someone with a limited and small perspective (me)... how much more so for someone with a larger and unlimited perspective (God). So people could factor that into their reasoning.
Peace,
tammy
But I just wanted to show how it was possible with someone with a limited and small perspective (me)... how much more so for someone with a larger and unlimited perspective (God). So people could factor that into their reasoning.
But you didn't show that. You just used the word "know" to mean "guess". Unlimited perspective? Are you saying God knows everything, even the future? And you never answered my question, are you suggsting that God makes guesses about the future?
Lots of people have lots of assumptions about God. You stepped into a debate where the ideas were already laid out that were being discussed and you did so without saying until much later how your ideas were different.
My ideas are often different. I don't always correct someone else... I most often just state what I have to say on the matter.
No. Not really. But, trying to use the word "know" to mean "guess" is trying to cross-breed apples and oranges with a chicken.
Because 'guess' does not adequately describe it. Definition of guess is to predict without sufficient information.
Educated guess is a bit better. But I don't think that is entirely accurate as well.
'Know' comes closest of all of these. Knowing every action of everyone ever? Can't say as I think this is right.
In any case...
Peace!
tammy
I don't always correct someone else... I most often just state what I have to say on the matter...tec
LOL...no seriously....LOL
