Does God's foreknowledge take away from free will? (page 25)

sizemik

Consequences don't take away from free will. . . . tec

So if my Govt tells me if I walk out of my gate, I will be shot on sight . . . I still have free-will.

That's OK . . . just wanted to be clear on your definition.

If it is possible to know the future then we have a deterministic universe where quantum fluctuations will happen according to the starting conditions of the universe and are playing out exactly as planned/ordered. Humans are a fairly miniscule and irrelevant part of that deterministic universe and are a slave tothat determinism. With regard to the past our present fixes it into set deterministic state, what was must have been for now to be. - Qcmbr

But Qcmbr, aren't quantum fluctuations random? It's kind of like the butterfly effect, so that even though you begin the same, any miniscule change has an extraordinary effect on the final outcome.

Knowsnothing

So if my Govt tells me if I walk out of my gate, I will be shot on sight . . . I still have free-will.

Strawman. You don't take into account the ability to change things. There are other alternatives. You can break the rules and somehow get away with it.

sizemik

Strawman. You don't take into account the ability to change things. There are other alternatives. You can break the rules and somehow get away with it.

Well, in relation to the concept of God-oriented free-will, it is not a strawman at all. Did A&E have other alternatives or the option to break the rules? If so, please point them out . . . or understand what a strawman is.

tec

So if my Govt tells me if I walk out of my gate, I will be shot on sight . . . I still have free-will.

Well, technically you do. You could choose to walk out and get shot. Not a smart choice, but still a choice.

If we are speaking in context of God though... then the analogy might be more along the lines of someone warning you that there are enemy snipers outside that gate at the moment, and that if you go out, you'll get shot on sight. Maybe you don't believe them (maybe you decide that you can do so without being seen... and so can't get shot 'on sight'), and so go out anyway... then get shot.

That's OK . . . just wanted to be clear on your definition.

Cool.

Free will is not freedom from consequences of exercising that will - good or bad consequences.

Peace,

tammy

Knowsnothing

Did A&E have other alternatives or the option to break the rules?

Oops! It was my fault! I didn't read the context. I just assumed we were talking about free will vs. deterministic universe.

If so, please point them out . . . or understand what a strawman is.

Well, given the context and also that I love playing Jehovah's advocate, the choice seemed pretty damn simple to me. It's one freaking tree out of the whole garden. The only thing that made it 'difficult' was the wrench thrown in, the snake's temptation.

Why did A&E need other alternative or the option to break the rules, when the rules were simple as can be? Don't eat! Hell, they could've even played frisbee with the damned fruit, as long as they didn't eat, that one condition, how exactly was their free-will being taken away?

BTW, I know what a strawman is. I hope you'll understand it was an error on my part for not reading the context.

sizemik

That's the reason a clear definition is needed . . .

All of us are "free" to defy the law of gravity if we wish . . . simply by hurling ourselves off a tall building, in spite of the obvious consequences. That simply becomes a choice, an expression of free-will.

I'm just not clear what reducing the debate to such a level proves.

sizemik

This relationship between "foreknowledge" and free will, needs to be examined thoroughly. Because free will can exist in degrees, and can also be severely comprimised.

EG: In the case of defying gravity . . . I have free will to do that. My body slamming into the pavement at 150 km/hr+ will kill me . . . I accept that consequence. But there are other consequences . . . any witnesses will be shocked, horrified and even traumatised. As will emergency services that have to clean up the mess. My children, family and friends will be devastated. My children would be forever changed, and without a guiding figure in their lives. There might be others, but these ones I have "foreknowledge" of, and will strongly influence my correct exersise of free will.

What of the case of A&E? God simply stated that the penalty would be death . . . nothing more. Even that consequence was not fully explained. And did God say . . . "Your offspring will also suffer centuries of suffering, pain and untimely death . . . and I will have to carry out mass-slaughter, not just once (along with all the animals), not just twice, but three seperate times. And all through this I will not lift a finger to stop it." Perhaps if Adam had that information, his choice would be different . . . but it was "obey or die" . . . that was all he could exercise free will over.

So A&E were not told the full consequences, even though God had foreknowledge this would happen. He withheld vital information. This, IMO is not facilitating the exercise of free will . . . it is comprimising it. So foreknowledge withheld does in fact comprimise true free will . . . it can't avoid it

EntirelyPossible

Why won't any believe answer my question? I've asked politely several times.

If God can know/guess/predict/etc. the future and there IS free-will, is there ANY chance, any percentage or any possibility that a person making a choice could choose differently that God thinks or has seen it will turn out?

prologos

entirely possible, as a questioning BELIEVER in a creator, I think he, while master of the situation is mostly an observer, some of the bible tales are fables and should not be used as facts in a debate about reality. He does not have to know the unfolding future in advance to be the creator. The observer, like a spectator with a good view of a sporting event does not effect the outcome of the game. I like to learn more about this, but its reality that trumps, and the bible is no help.

Does God's foreknowledge take away from free will?

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