How exactly did Jesus fulfill the law NOT the prophecies.

by mP 229 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  mP

  Leaving:

  Just my two cents... according to a number of commentators, the transfiguration was God's affirmation that Moses (representing the Law) and Elijah (representing the Prophets) would give way to Jesus when He said "Listen to him." Up until that point, God gave the Law for His people to obey, and he gave the Prophets to communicate to them His sayings. This was to be no more. From this point forward, they were to listen to Jesus.

  Remember, too, the definition of "fulfill" can simply be "to bring to an end" (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fulfill see 2b).

  MP:

  Arent they just making it up ? Elijah and Mohammad went to heaven according to the Bible and Koran. There were lots of prophets, saying listen to them doesnt automatically make that spokesman a prophet. Given Elijah went to heaven on a chariot, why didnt the law end with his ascension ? It didnt because the bible does not say that.

  The NT can say whatever it wants but the idea of fulfilling the law is not present in the OT, which is why no one asserting tht here has been able to show a single scripture from Moses.
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  Christ Alone

  Can you tell us what Yom Kippur is then, MP?

  Or what about Sin offerings?

  While Jews believe that everyone is born "good", they DO believe in sin.

  Judaism was off base already at the time of Christ. The Pharisees were Jews and taught many wrong things about the scriptures. Jesus corrected them constantly. They were wrong about their rules on Sabbath. They were wrong on Law justifying a person. These false ideas kept going, and the Jewish Christians had to be corrected majorly. Hebrews is a major example of their need for correction. They were going back to things that were to be left behind.
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  Apognophos

  So your saying that we must accept Pauls word, because Jesus never said it.

  Sorry, I guess I misunderstood the point of this thread. I thought you were asking what the word "fulfill" meant in the context of Christian teaching and Mosaic Law. I guess your actual point was that Paul taught the fulfillment, not Jesus himself. Offhand I don't know how to refute that, maybe someone else will. I think I get your point a little better now, though.

  As i have shown Jesus in love thy neighbour is quoting, he is not refutng it.

  I never claimed he was refuting it, just expanding the definition of "neighbor" in that commandment. But let's not talk about that here, it seems to be off-topic if we're talking about Jesus fulfilling the Law.
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  Christ Alone

  The NT can say whatever it wants but the idea of fulfilling the law is not present in the OT

  Of course it doesn't! The Law was incomplete! Anyone that does not understand "Progressive Revelation" will not get this. The Jews are STILL looking for Messiah, and He has already come and gone. 2000 years ago! When one only has the OT to look at, everything is incomplete. They have a partial Revelation of God. The book of Revelation, rather than being a doomsday book with literal events, is a fulfillment of everything. Without a full understanding of the OT, understanding Revelation is impossible.

  All parts of the OT are fulfilled in Jesus. Messiah is present in every part of the OT. Every law was pointing towards Messiah. The Law was for the forgiveness of transgression of the people. Jesus was to remove the transgression.

  Isaiah 53:8 - He was taken from prison and from judgement and who shall declare his generation? For he was cutt off out of the land of the living; for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

  No sin?

  1John 2:2 - "And He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."

  Daniel 9:26 - "And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself..."

  Here is a prophecy that is very apparent on JWN:

  Isaiah 53:3 - "He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not."
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  Christ Alone

  So, MP, are you saying that Jesus did NOT fufill prophecies about Him?
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  mP

  Christ:

  Can you tell us what Yom Kippur is then, MP?

  MP:

  Thats a holy day, its not mentioned in the Torah. We have the same w/ Xmas, xians have it as a holy day but it doesnt appear in the BIble.

  Of course if im wrong show me the scriptures.

  ChristAlone:

  Or what about Sin offerings?

  MP:

  You keep using the word sin, but it or anyting remotely similar never appears in the Torah. YOu are assuming way too much, step back and find a scripture.

  ChristAlone:

  While Jews believe that everyone is born "good", they DO believe in sin. We were discussing the law, im now asking for a scripture from Moses' law that backs your premise.
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  Christ Alone

  Because here are SOME of them:

  SUBJECT	OT Prophecy	NT Fulfillment
  As the Son of God	Ps 2:7	Lu 1:32,35
  As the seed of the woman	Ge 3:15	Ga 4:4
  As the seed of Abraham	Ge 17:7 22:18	Ga 3:16
  As the seed of Isaac	Ge 21:12	Heb 11:17-19
  As the seed of David	Ps 132:11 Jer 23:5	Ac 13:23 Ro 1:3
  His coming at a set time	Ge 49:10 Da 9:24,25	Lu 2:1
  His being born of a virgin	Isa 7:14	Mt 1:22,23 Lu 2:7
  His being called Immanuel	Isa 7:14	Mt 1:22,23
  His being born in Bethlehem of Judea	Mic 5:2	Mt 2:1 Lu 2:4-6
  Great persons coming to adore him	Ps 72:10	Mt 2:1-11
  The slaying of the children of Bethlehem	Jer 31:15	Mt 2:16-18
  His being called out of Egypt	Ho 11:1	Mt 2:15
  His being preceded by John the Baptist	Isa 40:3 Mal 3:1	Mt 3:1,3 Lu 1:17
  His being anointed with the Spirit	Ps 45:7 Isa 11:2 61:1	Mt 3:16 Joh 3:34 Ac 10:38
  His being a Prophet like to Moses	De 18:15-18	Ac 3:20-22
  His being a Priest after the order of Melchizedek	Ps 110:4	Heb 5:5,6
  His entering on his public ministry	Isa 61:1,2	Lu 4:16-21,43
  His ministry commencing in Galilee	Isa 9:1,2	Mt 4:12-16,23
  His entering publicly into Jerusalem	Zec 9:9	Mt 21:1-5
  His coming into the temple	Hag 2:7,9 Mal 3:1	Mt 21:12 Lu 2:27-32 Joh 2:13-16
  His poverty	Isa 53:2	Mr 6:3 Lu 9:58
  His meekness and want of ostentatious	Isa 42:2	Mt 12:15,16,19
  His tenderness and compassion	Isa 40:11 42:3	Mt 12:15,20 Heb 4:15
  His being without guile	Isa 53:9	1Pe 2:22
  His zeal	Ps 69:9	Joh 2:17
  His preaching by parables	Ps 78:2	Mt 13:34,35
  His working miracles	Isa 35:5,6	Mt 11:4-6 Joh 11:47
  His bearing reproach	Ps 22:6 69:7,9,20	Ro 15:3
  His being rejected by his brethren	Ps 69:8 Isa 63:3	Joh 1:11 7:3
  His being a stone of stumbling to the Jews	Isa 8:14	Ro 9:32 1Pe 2:8
  His being hated by the Jews	Ps 69:4 Isa 49:7	Joh 15:24,25
  His being rejected by the Jewish rulers	Ps 118:22	Mt 21:42 Joh 7:48
  That the Jews and Gentiles should combine against Him	Ps 2:1,2	Lu 23:12 Ac 4:27
  His being betrayed by a friend	Ps 41:9 55:12-14	Joh 13:18,21
  His disciples forsaking him	Zec 13:7	Mt 26:31,56
  His being sold for thirty pieces silver	Zec 11:12	Mt 26:15
  His price being given for the potter's field	Zec 11:13	Mt 27:7
  The intensity of his sufferings	Ps 22:14,15	Lu 22:42,44
  His sufferings being for others	Isa 53:4-6,12 Da 9:26	Mt 20:28
  His patience and silence under suffering	Isa 53:7	Mt 26:63 27:12-14
  His being smitten on the cheek	Mic 5:1	Mt 27:30
  His visage being marred	Isa 52:14 53:3	Joh 19:5
  His being spit on and scourged	Isa 50:6	Mr 14:65 Joh 19:1
  His hands and feet being nailed to the cross	Ps 22:16	Joh 19:18 20:25
  His being forsaken by God	Ps 22:1	Mt 27:46
  His being mocked	Ps 22:7,8	Mt 27:39-44
  Gall and vinegar being given him to drink	Ps 69:21	Mt 27:34
  His garments being parted, and lots cast for his vesture	Ps 22:18	Mt 27:35
  His being numbered with the transgressors	Isa 53:12	Mr 15:28
  His intercession for His murderers	Isa 53:12	Lu 23:34
  His Death	Isa 53:12	Mt 27:50
  That a bone of him should not be broken	Ex 12:46 Ps 34:20	Joh 19:33,36
  His being pierced	Zec 12:10	Joh 19:34,37
  His being buried with the rich	Isa 53:9	Mt 27:57-60
  His flesh not seeing corruption	Ps 16:10	Ac 2:31
  His resurrection	Ps 16:10 Isa 26:19	Lu 24:6,31,34
  His ascension	Ps 68:18	Lu 24:51 Ac 1:9
  His sitting on the right hand of God	Ps 110:1	Heb 1:3
  His exercising the priestly office in heaven	Zec 6:13	Ro 8:34
  His being the chief corner-stone of the Church	Isa 28:16	1Pe 2:6,7
  His being King in Zion	Ps 2:6	Lu 1:32 Joh 18:33-37
  The conversion of the Gentiles to him	Isa 11:10 42:1	Mt 1:17,21 Joh 10:16 Ac 10:45,47
  His righteous government	Ps 45:6,7	Joh 5:30 Re 19:11
  His universal dominion	Ps 72:8 Da 7:14	Php 2:9,11
  The perpetuity of his kingdom	Isa 9:7 Da 7:14	Lu 1:32,33
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  mP

  MP: So your saying that we must accept Pauls word, because Jesus never said it.

  APOG: Sorry, I guess I misunderstood the point of this thread. I thought you were asking what the word "fulfill" meant in the context of Christian teaching and Mosaic Law. I guess your actual point was that Paul taught the fulfillment, not Jesus himself. Offhand I don't know how to refute that, maybe someone else will. I think I get your point a little better now, though.

  MP:

  Its hard to wonder how such a vital concept is never said by Jesus. Perhaps the simple answer is if he that was the main purpose of his life then he would have said it, but he didnt.

  Sin and hell was invented by the Catholic church so they could sell indulgencies for money! There is no firey hell in the BIble, just like theres no sin in the law.

  MP: As i have shown Jesus in love thy neighbour is quoting, he is not refutng it.

  APOG:

  I never claimed he was refuting it, just expanding the definition of "neighbor" in that commandment. But let's not talk about that here, it seems to be off-topic if we're talking about Jesus fulfilling the Law.

  MP:

  Being a commentator does not make you special. We are commentating on the law now, that doesnt make us the Messiah.
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  tec

  You keep using the word sin, but it or anyting remotely similar never appears in the Torah. YOu are assuming way too much, step back and find a scripture.

  Are you saying that you do not believe that sin is mentioned in the OT, or the law?

  Leviticus 4:2

  Say to the Israelites: 'When anyone sins unintentionally and does what is forbidden in any of the LORD's commands-- That is just one example, MP. There are others. Peace, tammy
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  Christ Alone

  Yom Kippur IS in the Torah. I just assumed you were more of a Jewish expert with how you were talking.

  It is known as the Day of Atonement. It is discussed in Leviticus 23:27 and decrees a prohibition of work and food. Yom Kippur are mentioned in three passages in the Torah:

  Leviticus 16:1-34 - Gold told Moses that only Aaron can enter the sanctuary when God is present on the cover in a cloud. If Aaron enters at any other time, he will die. On the tenth day of the 7th month, God said that the people must not work in order to cleanse and atone for their sins. The Kohen will lead in the atonement of all the people.

  Leviticus 23:26-32 - God tells Moses that the 10th day of the month is the day of atonement and will be holy. The people must give a fire offering to God and not work. God tells Moses that whoever DOES work will be killed. This is a day of total rest from the evening of the 9th day to the following evening.

  Numbers 29:7-11 - The 10th day of the 7th month is a holy day and one must not work. They will give an elevation offering by sacrificing a young bull, a ram, and seven lambs who are a year old. They must also provide a SIN offering of a male goat.

  So yes, Yom Kippur is in the Torah. Very clearly. And YES, they did believe in sin.