by mP 229 Replies latest watchtower bible
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=leviticus%204&version=KJV
14 When the sin, which they have sinned against it, is known, then the congregation shall offer a young bullock for the sin, and bring him before the tabernacle of the congregation.
MP:
The text sounds like they may SIN not that they are BORN WITH AND ALWAYS SIN. Then again im not sure how everyone in the country can all commit the same sin.
This doesnt sound to me like xian sin.
TEC:
Say to the Israelites: 'When anyone sins unintentionally and does what is forbidden in any of the LORD's commands--
That is just one example, MP. There are others.
MP:
It says WHEN, just like WHEN you park in the wrong spot you get a fine, or WHEN you murder someone you goto jail.
The text does NOT say you have ALL SINNED because you ALL break this law. I will have to read more carefully to verify this. If you find something that says this please point it out.
THis is very different from the xian we all sin and need Jesus. Im sorry i have never broken any of the laws in my country, therefore i have not sinned.
I also have never broken any of the non ceremonial laws in the Torah, no murders, no idol worshipping etc. Im pretty sure you and everyone else here is also the same. I am delibarely leaving out the ceremonial stuff, but if i had too we all could observe them without any problems. They are limiting and annoying but they are not impossible.
We were not discussing the dates of Yom Kippur, MP. You said that it doesn't exist in scripture. I showed you very clearly that it does. It was a DAY OF ATONEMENT. Atonement for SIN. The Jews had sin offerings to cover their failures, and even consecrate priests.
I'm sorry, but you don't have a scriptural leg to stand on with this. Sin IS in the Bible. Maybe Jews don't believe in the Christian concept of sin, but they still believe in sin. The word is discussed over and over again in the OT.
There are several Hebrew words that refer to sin. One is raah. It is used more than 600 times and means "evil" or "bad". According to Strong, it carries the implication of something that is contrary to God's nature.
Another is Chaaah. It's used 300 times and is usually translated "sin" or "offense". It carries the implication of that which is deserving of punishment.
Rasha is closely related and is used more than 250 times. It is usually translated "wicked". It carries the implication of something that is morally wrong.
Avon is used more than 200 times and is most often translated "iniquity". It carries the implication of being perverse, crooked, or twisted.
Perha is used 100 times and is translated "transgression". It carries the implication of REBELLION.
Asham is used more than 30 times and is translated as "guilty". It carries the implication of offense or tresspass.
There are several others, but I think you get the point. Sin is very present in the OT. And the Jews understood the need for the guilt of it to be removed in order to have a good standing before YHWH. Hence, the sacrifices.
Hebrews shows that these sacrifices pointed towards Jesus. Of course, modern non messianic Jews do not agree.
Christ:
Well the SIN offering is in Leviticus 4:1-5:13. You can start there. Also 6:24-30.
The Sin Offering is first mentioned in Ex 29:36. It says, "Sacrifice a bull each day as a sin offering to make atonement. Purify the altar by making atonement for it, and anoint it to consecrate it."
I'm a little bemused that you think a Sin Offering is not in the Torah...
Sin offerings were offered for sins of ignorance, at the consecration of priests, at the consecration of Levites, at the expiration of a Nazarite's vow, one the day of atonement (Yom Kippur), and was a holy sacrifice
For sins of ignorance.
Leviticus 4:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a soul shall sin through ignorance against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and shall do against any of them:
Leviticus 4:13 And if the whole congregation of Israel sin through ignorance, and the thing be hid from the eyes of the assembly, and they have donesomewhat against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning thingswhich should not be done, and are guilty;
Leviticus 4:22 When a ruler hath sinned, and done somewhat through ignorance against any of the commandments of the LORD his God concerning things which should not be done, and is guilty;
MP
As my prev post to tec says , these texts in summary say WHEN you break this law you need to pay this fine or sacrifice. No where does it say everyone is born with SIN like xians claim.
Thi sis just a set of regulations just like our modern society. You park in the wrong spot you get a parking fine. We have different way of payment but its the same thing.
Are you a converted Jew, MP?
CA:
We were not discussing the dates of Yom Kippur, MP. You said that it doesn't exist in scripture. I showed you very clearly that it does. It was a DAY OF ATONEMENT. Atonement for SIN. The Jews had sin offerings to cover their failures, and even consecrate priests.
MP:
I made a mistake. I was however thinking of xian sin and Yom Kippur is not about that. Its a holiday to celebrate harvest, not sin. I have explained its origins, you can look up scholars if you want, but you cannot deny that its just a copy of all other other pagan harvest holidays who all believed the same idea that god would judge them and this would be reflected in the bounty of their crops.
CA:
There are several Hebrew words that refer to sin. One is raah. It is used more than 600 times and means "evil" or "bad". According to Strong, it carries the implication of something that is contrary to God's nature.
Another is Chaaah. It's used 300 times and is usually translated "sin" or "offense". It carries the implication of that which is deserving of punishment.
Rasha is closely related and is used more than 250 times. It is usually translated "wicked". It carries the implication of something that is morally wrong.
Avon is used more than 200 times and is most often translated "iniquity". It carries the implication of being perverse, crooked, or twisted.
MP:
Thanks but that doesnt change my original statement that xian sin does not appear in Moses law. I think your comments back me up on this assertion. THe idea is dont break our countries law, not that we are all flawed and break them all the time which is more what xians sin and Jesus would have us believe.
I never thought the modern Jewish concept of sin was the same as Christians (xians is extremely annoying to read, just like xing is annoying to read on road signs :-) )
But the Christian concept makes sense. The Jewish concept is the all are born good. They are not born to do things wrong. Doing something wrong is something that they believe is learned as one grows up. I find this to be laughable even outside the Bible. I never had to learn to be bad. I had to learn goodness. I hit, kicked, screamed, threw things, etc until my parents taught me that that behavior was wrong and that being good was something else. But I digress.
It says WHEN, just like WHEN you park in the wrong spot you get a fine, or WHEN you murder someone you goto jail.
So?
Didn't you say there was no word or concept of "sin" specifically in the OT?
Obviously there is. It carries over into the NT... when the teachers and pharisess said 'you were steeped in sin from birth, how dare you lecture us' John 9:34.
In any case, obviously, there was the concept of sin. I believe the Israelites also sent a goat into the desert every year to carry away the sins of the people. Leviticus 16:21-22
The text does NOT say you have ALL SINNED because you ALL break this law. I will have to read more carefully to verify this. If you find something that says this please point it out.
I do not recall that text.
But if you break one law, you are a lawbreaker... regardless of which law it is.
THis is very different from the xian we all sin and need Jesus. Im sorry i have never broken any of the laws in my country, therefore i have not sinned.
That just means you have not sinned against your country.
I also have never broken any of the non ceremonial laws in the Torah, no murders, no idol worshipping etc. Im pretty sure you and everyone else here is also the same. I am delibarely leaving out the ceremonial stuff, but if i had too we all could observe them without any problems. They are limiting and annoying but they are not impossible.
Have you ever wronged someone in your life? Because if you have, then you have sinned against them.
Not for me to make a statement as to your sin or not though. Not my business.
I have sinned. I have wronged others. So I am a sinner, in need of Christ.
Peace,
tammy
THe idea is dont break our countries law, not that we are all flawed and break them all the time which is more what xians sin and Jesus would have us believe.
No, I don't think you understand the idea of sin. We cannot sin without Law. Because we can never follow any Law perfectly, we are sinners because Law exists. I can never follow every law given by my country. I will inevitably break one, whether it be speeding, or something else. We are only born broken because we are born with an inability to perfectly follow Law.
Paul said that he did not understand sin until it was taught to him in the Law. He uses coveting as an example.
"What then shall we say? That the Law is sin? By no means! Yet, if it had not been for the Law, I should not have known sin. I should not have known what it is to covet if the Law had not said, "You shall not covet." But sin, finding opportunity in the commandment, wrought in me all kinds of covetousness. Apart from the Law, sin lies dead." (Romans 7:7,8)
Law taught what sin was. If there was no law, sin would not exist. And this is the reason why many Jews reject original sin. Their concept of sin (doing something that offends God) is the same. It is just the WHEN it came about that is the question.
God laid down a law for Adam and Eve not to eat of the tree. But they did. Without God's Law not to eat, there was no sin. But once God told them what was sinful behavior, and they did, then SIN occured. That is why Christians believe in original sin. Because the first Law was given and then broken.
We then have to get into grace (a concept JWs do not understand), and why we are accepted even though we cannot follow the Law. But I will let that go for now.
