How exactly did Jesus fulfill the law NOT the prophecies.

by mP 229 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  mP

  MP: The NT can say whatever it wants but the idea of fulfilling the law is not present in the OT

  CA:

  Of course it doesn't! The Law was incomplete! Anyone that does not understand "Progressive Revelation" will not get this.

  MP:

  Thats nonsense, you tell me he fulfilled the law then you tell me it was not written. Prophecy means it was written before hand and then it happened afterwards. You cant write porphecy after the fact because then its not prophecy, you have broken the main element of the concept.

  CA:

  The Jews are STILL looking for Messiah, and He has already come and gone. 2000 years ago! When one only has the OT to look at, everything is incomplete. They have a partial Revelation of God. The book of Revelation, rather than being a doomsday book with literal events, is a fulfillment of everything. Without a full understanding of the OT, understanding Revelation is impossible.

  All parts of the OT are fulfilled in Jesus. Messiah is present in every part of the OT. Every law was pointing towards Messiah. The Law was for the forgiveness of transgression of the people. Jesus was to remove the transgression.

  MP:

  Thanks for the history lesson but your not actually quoting Moses law.

  CA:

  Isaiah 53:8 - He was taken from prison and from judgement and who shall declare his generation? For he was cutt off out of the land of the living; for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

  No sin?

  1John 2:2 - "And He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."

  Daniel 9:26 - "And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself..."

  MP:

  John is after Jesus, so again no moses definition of sin.

  Daniel is also not the law, hes is a separate "prophet". That scripture could apply to many people. Every king and priest was a mssiah and they all died.

  CA

  Here is a prophecy that is very apparent on JWN:

  Isaiah 53:3 - "He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not."

  MP:

  As previously mentiond in a thread about Jehovah and his porphets, Isaiah was also rejected by the people and lived in the wilderness. Nearly every prophet in the OT says the same, the people dont listen to him when he tells them to stop worhsipping false idols and worship only Jehovah.

  You cant use this scripture to uniquely identfy Jesus because it applies to countless others.

  Anyway Isaiah is not the law he is a prophet makign a prophecy. LAW != PROPHECY.
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  tec

  Sin is talked about all through chapters 4, 5, and 6. Just as a start...

  Peace,

  tammy
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  mP

  CA:
  I will read your scriptures from Leviticus soon and reply. i habemt forgotten & i will cherry pick some of your prophecies & show them for being utter crock.
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  mP

  TEC:

  Sin is talked about all through chapters 4, 5, and 6. Just as a start...

  Peace,

  MP:

  Of which book ? Can you give a quote inline here that says "sin", not what you think.
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  mP

  CA:

  So, MP, are you saying that Jesus did NOT fufill prophecies about Him?

  MP:

  Thats write, and i will later today my time type something up and show you with qutes from your scriptures how this assertion is all wrong. There are too many there but when you realise some are plain out bogus you can repeat the exercise and see ht oehters are aswell.

  If you awnt i will also reply to any prophecies that you feel are perfect once i finish my selection.
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  tec

  Of which book ? Can you give a quote inline here that says "sin", not what you think.

  Leviticus. I gave a quote above.

  Peace,

  tammy
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  Christ Alone

  Well the SIN offering is in Leviticus 4:1-5:13. You can start there. Also 6:24-30.

  The Sin Offering is first mentioned in Ex 29:36. It says, " Sacrifice a bull each day as a sin offering to make atonement. Purify the altar by making atonement for it, and anoint it to consecrate it."

  I'm a little bemused that you think a Sin Offering is not in the Torah...

  Sin offerings were offered for sins of ignorance, at the consecration of priests, at the consecration of Levites, at the expiration of a Nazarite's vow, one the day of atonement (Yom Kippur), and was a holy sacrifice

  For sins of ignorance.

  Leviticus 4:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a soul shall sin through ignorance against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and shall do against any of them:

  Leviticus 4:13 And if the whole congregation of Israel sin through ignorance, and the thing be hid from the eyes of the assembly, and they have donesomewhat against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning thingswhich should not be done, and are guilty;

  Leviticus 4:22 When a ruler hath sinned, and done somewhat through ignorance against any of the commandments of the LORD his God concerning things which should not be done, and is guilty;

  Leviticus 4:27 And if any one of the common people sin through ignorance, while he doeth somewhat against any of the commandments of the LORDconcerning things which ought not to be done, and be guilty;

  At the consecration of priests.

  Exodus 29:10 And thou shalt cause a bullock to be brought before the tabernacle of the congregation: and Aaron and his sons shall put their hands upon the head of the bullock.

  Exodus 29:14 But the flesh of the bullock, and his skin, and his dung, shalt thou burn with fire without the camp: it is a sin offering.

  At the consecration of Levites.

  Numbers 8:8 Then let them take a young bullock with his meat offering, even fine flour mingled with oil, and another young bullock shalt thou take for a sin offering.

  At the expiration of a Nazarite's vow.

  Numbers 6:14 And he shall offer his offering unto the LORD, one he lamb of the first year without blemish for a burnt offering, and one ewe lamb of the first year without blemish for a sin offering, and one ram without blemish for peace offerings,

  On the day of atonement.

  Leviticus 16:3 Thus shall Aaron come into the holy place: with a young bullock for a sin offering, and a ram for a burnt offering.

  Leviticus 16:9 And Aaron shall bring the goat upon which the LORD'S lot fell, and offer him for a sin offering.

  Was a most holy sacrifice.

  Leviticus 6:25 Speak unto Aaron and to his sons, saying, This is the law of the sin offering: In the place where the burnt offering is killed shall the sin offering be killed before the LORD: it is most holy.

  Leviticus 6:29 All the males among the priests shall eat thereof: it is most holy.
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  Christ Alone

  As far as prophecy, I would ask someone to read this and tell me who it is speaking about and where it can be found:

  he was pierced for our rebellion,
  crushed for our sins.
  He was beaten so we could be whole.
  He was whipped so we could be healed.
  All of us, like sheep, have strayed away.
  We have left God’s paths to follow our own.
  Yet the Lord laid on him
  the sins of us all.

  He was oppressed and treated harshly,
  yet he never said a word.
  He was led like a lamb to the slaughter.
  And as a sheep is silent before the shearers,
  he did not open his mouth.
  Unjustly condemned,
  he was led away.
  No one cared that he died without descendants,
  that his life was cut short in midstream.
  But he was struck down
  for the rebellion of my people.
  He had done no wrong
  and had never deceived anyone.
  But he was buried like a criminal;
  he was put in a rich man’s grave.

  This all easily applies to Jesus of Nazareth. Yet, it was written in Isaiah. Even Jews look to the OT for prophecies about Messiah. They don't see that it was fufilled in Jesus, so they are still looking for Messiah. The Jews have been without contact with God and understanding for a very long time. Their history, in the OT is full of them not understanding and drawing away from God. Over and over again. The OT is full of examples. It matters not that they rejected Messiah, to me. Jesus clearly fulfilled countless prophecies about him.

  The accusation CAN be made that the writers went through the OT and forced the fulfillment (which I believe is the point you are trying to make, MP). But when they wrote the gospel and gave it to Christians, those reading would have known if the claims were true or false. They lived through it. Or AT LEAST would have had relatives and friends who did.
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  mP

  Christ:

  Can you tell us what Yom Kippur is then, MP?

  MP:

  There are problems because Yom Kippur has evolved over time. The wiki text mentions the temple but we know that no temple was presnet when Moses wrote the Torah, which means things have changed. The original jews and the tabernacle couldnt perform the same ceremony as the later ones with the temple.

  http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=leviticus%204&version=KJV

  4 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,

  2 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a soul shall sin through ignorance against any of the commandments of the Lord concerning things which ought not to be done, and shall do against any of them:

  It says IF, not that they DO. Sin in this context sounds like they are breaking laws, like if you or me break the laws in our own home countries. Quite a different feel from the Xian we are all born with sin. That cocnept is not in these Levicitus text. Ill say that its confusing as it does sometimes seem to be talking abut individuals and then about the nation as a whole.

  If you look at Yom Kippur you will observe it is a autum or fall festival or end of the season where you go harvest. The judging of sins, means if you worshipped God he will give you a good harvest. Many ancient cultures had the same festival. Libra has the scales in September or the end of the harvest for the same reason. She represents judging the value of your work over the summer.

  Yom Kippur is a copy of this festival just like Passover is a copy of other Spring festivals. Notice they all fall on equinoxes and have motifs found in other cultures. Dates dont lie, they are set to these dates for a reason.
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  Apognophos

  Coming back to the subject of what Jesus himself said, what about the evening meal where, at Matthew 26:26-28 (also in Mark 14:22-24 and Luke 22:19, 20), he said that the bread and wine represented his body and his blood being a sacrifice "in behalf of many"? Doesn't this indicate that Jesus' death was doing away with the need for sin offerings?