CA:
Are you a converted Jew, MP?
MP:
No, but that hardly matters.
Let Moses writings speak for themselves. Xians claim jesus fulfilled the law, and then you read the law and it doesnt add up.
How exactly did Jesus fulfill the law NOT the prophecies.
by mP 229 Replies latest watchtower bible
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mP
CA:
I never thought the modern Jewish concept of sin was the same as Christians (xians is extremely annoying to read, just like xing is annoying to read on road signs :-) )
But the Christian concept makes sense. The Jewish concept is the all are born good. They are not born to do things wrong. Doing something wrong is something that they believe is learned as one grows up. I find this to be laughable even outside the Bible. I never had to learn to be bad. I had to learn goodness. I hit, kicked, screamed, threw things, etc until my parents taught me that that behavior was wrong and that being good was something else. But I digress.
MP: Sorry about xian i wil use the full form. I think the jewish idea as you state above is better, we are innocent until we commit a wrong doing. THe Christian form that we are guilt of unspecified stuff seems completely abhroant. Imagine the local police put me or you in jail for crime unspecified just because. That would be a nigtmare.
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mP
CA
No, I don't think you understand the idea of sin. We cannot sin without Law. Because we can never follow any Law perfectly, we are sinners because Law exists. I can never follow every law given by my country. I will inevitably break one, whether it be speeding, or something else. We are only born broken because we are born with an inability to perfectly follow Law.
MP:
Sin in the Torah is another way of saying you are guilyt of breaking hte law. I think you will agree and it appears we can use them interchangably. However i do have issue that you claim because im not perfect i break the law. .
Im sorry you claim im not perfect, and i agree but i have never broken any law in my country. Im not a saint but im pretty sure you habe not either. Most people are good, kind and so on, few are murders, robbers and so on. You cannot possibly say i have broken any law be it bible or civil for our respective countries, thats simply unfair.
If you want to say i have broken some bible law then present the scripture from Moses and i will truthfully answer. But other than that your just making false accusations that you cannot possible support.
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mP
TEC:
It says WHEN, just like WHEN you park in the wrong spot you get a fine, or WHEN you murder someone you goto jail.
So?
Didn't you say there was no word or concept of "sin" specifically in the OT?
MP:
You and others were claiming "Christian sin" was in the OT. Just because "s/i/n" appears here its quite clear from the context its not the same meaning as the "sin" that Christians use when speaking of Jesus and his perfect offering. We could just as easily replace "sin" with "law" and some bibles have it and the text would be equally correct in meaning.
Sin and law in Moses are interchangable for the purposes of our discussion. I have not broken any law of Moses if we ignor e the ceremonial stuff. Neither have you. By your own definition i dont need Jesus, because i have not broken any law. If you wish to dispute that i am open you can ask me if i have broken any law of Moses, but you must quote the scripture here and i will honestly answer. YOu can answer the same law if you wish just to make it interesting.
You must remember in the old times, the law came from God, when you broke the law of the land you broke it against God. We dont say the same thing in our home countries as god has been removed from the law and soveriengy. Im my case when you break the law you are sinning against the Crown aka Her Majesty the Queen. She claims to rule because God gave her that right. OF course thats nonsense, but the ancient idea in the Bible is still there.
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Christ Alone
However i do have issue that you claim because im not perfect i break the law. .
I wasn't necessarily saying anything about you, MP. I'm saying it about ME! I break the law. I will continue to even though I try not to. Have you never told a lie? Have you never stolen anything even something as small as a pen? Have you never turned your wheels the wrong way so they are not facing the curb on a hill (a law in many places)? Even breaking a small law is breaking the law. The Law exists (in this context my countries law) and I can never fulfill it perfectly. I try, but I fail. I have not broken a law like murdering. But big laws and small laws are still laws. And breaking one of God's laws is sin.
I did not mean to apply this only to you. Again, I did not have to learn bad behavior. I had to learn GOOD behavior. And I still do! As soon as I was old enough to talk I knew how to say things that were not always kind and good. I had to learn how to NOT be unkind. That was my point.
It's fine if the Jewish concept of sin makes more sense to you. I actually don't think it matters much. Especially since I remember you being an atheist and not believing in anything. So this isn't really a discussion about whether sin is real, since sin cannot be real if God is not real. But anyway, it's fine.
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mP
CHirst:
Have you never told a lie?
MP:
Show me where moses says its wrong to lie. Deu 18:20 or 20:20 (i think thats it) says it wrong to lie under oath using GOds name. It does not say its wrong to lie i general they are completely circumstances.
We have the same in my countries. Theres no law about lying in my country, but in court you must tell the truth. THe laws about this make quite the distinction.
YOu are making assumptions about laws that are not to be found in Moses writings.
YOu keep telling me i break certain laws of God, but you cant highlight ONE FROM MOSES writing. I have given a link to the entire list, tell me which laws you think i have broken. Lying does not appear there.
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mP
CHrist:
Paul said that he did not understand sin until it was taught to him in the Law. He uses coveting as an example.
"What then shall we say? That the Law is sin? By no means! Yet, if it had not been for the Law, I should not have known sin. I should not have known what it is to covet if the Law had not said, "You shall not covet." But sin, finding opportunity in the commandment, wrought in me all kinds of covetousness. Apart from the Law, sin lies dead." (Romans 7:7,8)
MP:
Again you only seem to be able to quote NT thoughts. You claim Jesus fulfilled the law of Moses and tell me that people like you and me are imperfect and yet you cant show a single law that i have broken.
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mP
ChristAlone:
For sins of ignorance.
MP:
What is a sin of ignorance ? How exactly can anyone commit a murder or worship an idol out of ignorance ? This is a nonsense.Can you please list a few of the Mosaic law that anyone can commit out of ignorance ? Use sciptures or quote from the listing from wiki
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mP
ChristAlone:
-> http://jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/bible/249101/1/Jesus-Christ-and-OT-prophecies
We can conitnue our discussion there. This thread is more focused on Jesus and the LAW and not Jesus and PROPHECIES. Use th eother thread for th later.
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binadub
mP:
May I try . . .
It's my opinion that Jesus fulfilled the LAW not prophecies.
John 1:29:
29 The next day he *saw Jesus coming to him and *said, “Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!In Jewish Law, the slaughter of lambs on Passover was for the sins of Israel. That is why John would refer to Jesus as the "Lamb of God".
According to Jewish LAW, Passover the lambs were to be slaughtered at twilight on Nisan 14 and eaten that night (beginning of Nisan 15).
In Jesus day, the Temple Jews observed after sundown of the day Nisan 14, i.e., Passover on Nisan 15. (LAW ref: Exodus 12:5-11)
The first lamb was slaughtered by the High Priest at the 9th hour (approximately 3 pm, twightlight in Israel) for the sins of Israel. That year, Passover occurred after sundown on Friday (which made it Saturday on their calendar) and made it a special Passover that fell on the Sabbath.Jesus was arrested on Thursday, impaled on Friday and died at the 9th hour when the first lamb was being slaughtered in the Temple for Passover.
Jesus fulfilled Passover.The Death of JesusMatt 27:45-56 (Also: Mk 15:33-41; Lk 23:44-49; Jn 19:29-30)
45 From the sixth hour until the ninth hour darkness came over all the land. 46 About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, ""Eloi, Eloi," "lama" "sabachthani?"" --which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" .... 50 And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.
Jesus fulfilled the Passover lamb sacrifice.
Also being the heir to the throne of David (Ps. 22:2: "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me.")
In the LAW, in Leviticus 23, Passover occurs on Nisan 14/15 which may fall on any day of the week, Sunday-through Saturday.
Following Passover, regardless of what day of the week it falls on, the Festival of First Fruits occurs on the day AFTER the following Sabbath, or on the following Sunday (first day of the week.) This began the "Festival of Weeks that began the counting of 50 days to Pentecost.Therefore, Jesus died on Friday when the first lamb was slaughtered for Passover, and he rose on the day of the Festival of First Fruits (a point that the Gospel writers did not realize its significance, but is gleened from studying the LAW in the OT). Paul later realized the significance.
Jesus fulfilled the LAW Festival of First Fruits.The Spirit was poured out on Pentecost (Festival of Weeks which began with counting from the Festival of First Fruits).
Jesus fulfilled the LAW of the Festival of Weeks. (Acts 2)Tradition in Jesus day held that the first Pentecost was when Moses came down off Sinai with the two stone tablets and found the Israelites worshipping a golden calf. Outraged, he threw down the stone tablets and ordered the Levites to slaughter the idolators. "About three thousand of the people fell on that day. (3000 were killed, Exodus 32:28)
At Acts 2:41 it says: "So those who welcomed his message were baptized, and that day about three thousand persons were added.So on the first Pentecost, 3000 were killed for idolatry, on the last Pentecost 3000 were given life.
Paul later said the LAW kills but the Spirit gives life.
Jesus fulfilled Pentecost LAW.~Binadub