by Seraphim23 136 Replies latest jw friends
parakeet wrote :There are no heros in the history of religious faith -- only killers.
WRONG parakeet
That is an uninformed and inaccurate statement. Martin Luther King, Mahatma Gandhi,
liberation theologians of Africa, anti-apartheid, social gospel driven action groups.
Wherever there were evil men using religion to oppress there were good men/women
opposing them and they were not atheists they were people of faith.
If your looking for an argument VillageGirl This considerable rewriting of history will suffice:
"Wherever there were evil men using religion to oppress there were good men/women opposing them and they were not atheists they were people of faith."
Many of course were people of faith. However marching with them were Atheists, agnostics and those that did not identify with any denomination. Many were Humanists dedicated to the following principles:
A conviction that dogmas, ideologies and traditions, whether religious, political or social, must be weighed and tested by each individual and not simply accepted by faith.
A commitment to the use of critical reason, factual evidence and scientific method of inquiry in seeking solutions to human problems and answers to important human questions.
A concern for this life (as opposed to an afterlife) and a commitment to making it meaningful through better understanding of ourselves, our history, our intellectual and artistic achievements, and the outlooks of those who differ from us.
A search for viable individual, social and political principles of ethical conduct, judging them on their ability to enhance human well-being and individual responsibility.
Justice and fairness – an interest in securing justice and fairness in society and in eliminating discrimination and intolerance.
No matter how you want to slice it King and Gandhi were Humanists first and last. What religious implications they touched on, as both were believers, were secondary to the above agenda.
villagegirl: " Martin Luther King, Mahatma Gandhi, liberation theologians of Africa, anti-apartheid, social gospel driven action groups. Wherever there were evil men using religion to oppress there were good men/women opposing them and they were not atheists they were people of faith. "
Wiki: The European wars of religion were a series of wars waged in Europe from ca. 1524 to 1648, following the onset of the Protestant Reformation in Western and Northern Europe [emphasis mine] . Although sometimes unconnected, all of these wars were strongly influenced by the religious change of the period, and the conflict and rivalry that it produced. This is not to say that the combatants were neatly divided by religion, which they were often not.
Individual conflicts that can be distinguished within this topic include:
Although later wars such as the Nine Years' War (1688–97) had a religious component that was important locally in some arenas, they were more fundamentally undertaken for political reasons, with coalitions forming across religious divisions. Purely political motivations, and cross-religious alliances were also significant in many of the earlier wars.
Gandhi was opposed to this unintended result of the independence of India, but it happened just the same:
Wiki: The partition of India was set forth in the Indian Independence Act 1947 and resulted in the dissolution of the British Indian Empire and the end of the British Raj . It resulted in a struggle between the newly constituted states of India and Pakistan and displaced up to 12.5 million people with estimates of loss of life varying from several hundred thousand to a million (most estimates of the numbers of people who crossed the boundaries between India and Pakistan in 1947 range between 10 and 12 million). [1] The violent nature of the partition created an atmosphere of mutual hostility and suspicion between India and Pakistan that plagues their relationship to this day.
When I Googled "religious" wars, the screen popped up with these choices: Religious wars, Religious wars in Europe, Religious wars in France, Religious wars today, Religious wars in the Middle East, Religious wars in Africa, Religious wars in Ireland.
A veritable smorgasbord of killing in the name of God. Killers: in the millions. Good guys: a handful. And even the few good guys would not have been necessary were it not for the inevitable conflicts arising from differences in religious faith.
villagegirl: " That is an uninformed and inaccurate statement. "
Not so very uninformed and innacurate.
TTTcare lol, yep - attenborough, I'm a big fan, don' think there is any of his docu's I haven't seen,(cept the really old black and whites)
I've seen that one before. How many females were in that hunting party, if any, did you notice. Or were they all males. Have you seen the other ones wherre they actively hunt the smaller monkeys, chimp's eat meat, don't people know that.
But what is the point you are making ? that nature/wild animals are/can be savage, again that is no secret. however, I said 'domestic animals'
Have you seen where the orca's hunt down the baby sperm whales, kill them and only eat their, liver i think. Or great whites hunting down seals, and orcas hunting down seals, for sport.
Orca's kill great whites.
A hippo can literally bite a croc in half, ever wondered why hippo's live side by side with crocs.
Ever seen wild stallions fighting.
Magpies /crows robbing chicks out of nests. taking the eyes out of sheep and lambs.
Young bull adolescent elephants beating up on and killing rhinos.
Male lions who take over a pride and hunt down and kill any cubs in the pride.
Now take a look at Jane Goodalls fantastic docu's and the years she spent with chimps in the wild. big difference between them and attenboroughs, made for 1 hour docu's.
Then take a look at Diane Fossey, murdered for trying to preserve the mountain Gorrillas. She lived among them as part of the group and studied them. Sigourney Weaver played her part in a very good movie about it some years ago.
Back in the day the Gorillas were portrayed as dangerous savage beasts, nothing of the sort. they are now facing extinction.
In the Uk Monkey world, Jim (deceased now) and Alison Cronin, went all over the world rescuing chimps and other monkeys. Brilliant series.
Check out the one chimp, they rescued from spain, bless, he'd had his teeth knocked out, was addicitve to smoking all sorts. Chimps in cavity have also attacked their keepeers, owners. they like meat, are supa strong and not to be taken lightly.
Check out the one wheere they finally get the old macaque monkeys, who lived their lives in experimental labs, god love the, they lived in little cages, no exercise, no going out. It took ages to get them to start to go out of their living quarters into the ourdoor quarters.
Buddha (or tibetan ) monks, they got a tiger rescue sanctuary, started by accident cos the monk found a baby tiger cub. brilliant series.
Gio I agree, humanists.
village girl, please don't use this pitch for fighting and arguing. there's been a really good exchange of info in a nice peaceful setting .... so far
Since you asked, Saraphim, I will tell you about my experience with the Almighty. But since I now know it wasn't truly "with the Almighty," it will seem minimized and the critics will say their experience was/is much more real, sure, vivid, enlightening. You will just have to accept that it seemed every bit as real, sure, vividly, enlightening at the time.
I attempted suicide by putting my own .357 Magnum in my mouth pointed up toward the brain. I was very familiar with my gun and it was clean, oiled, fully functioning, and it had a very light trigger. I cocked the hammer and the slightest motion of my index finger would set it off.
I pulled on that trigger. Nothing happened and I really really pulled on the trigger. Nothing happened. Right then and there (without a "voice") God gave me a complete sense of mind to know that there was more for me to do with my life, and until I could manage myself, I didn't have to do so. God was not my co-pilot, but rather He was the pilot completely in charge of what I would do and say.
I was in a hotel room. I slept for nearly a day, then took a cab to the military hospital (I was in the service). I told a doctor what I did, but I "just knew" not to tell him nor the psychiatrists anything about God being in charge of my words and actions. That was God's decision as far as I could tell.
Story will continue in next entry. Using a tablet computer makes this difficult.
*lost*
The point that the chimp clan wars illustrate is that it completely destroys the concept of sin and its consequences, influence of satan etc., that religion has taught us. Chimps aren't guilty of sin and yet they exhibit many behaviors toward others of their own kind that religious people would consider 'evil'. If you believe in a benevolent and loving creator, you have to acknowledge that he built a great deal of suffering and violence into his creations that never sinned, and all of the other horrors in nature too.
I don't think this tracks with the idea of a god of love at all, what it teaches me is that the cold hard reality of evolution and natural selection is the best explanation for what we observe in nature that has been put forth so far. If you believe in god ask yourself why he would make a special exception for just one species to be warm fuzzy and loving towards, just because we have a few billion more brain cells.
In the Psych Ward, the biggest problem was this guy that was thrown into a van and raped by a group of men. The docs really spent all their energy on him and just wanted to know that I was stable and ready to return to duty.
That was God's doing. He was going to guide me so I didn't need these guys to really help.
Well, I returned to duty and despite the complete report from the hospital, I "just knew" not to offer any comments or story on what had happened to me to my superiors. That made me seem unstable to them so they sent me to a program about military bearing- kind of a mindless bootcamp of following tedious details on personal appearance and obeying orders. I was there until I was admitted back to the hospital in an alcoholic program. Despite their being busy, the psychiatrists had not totally forgotten me. It all was according to God's plan as far as I could tell. I "just knew" it was.
Going to end and start another post here.
The alcoholic program encouraged me to contact my mother and father. They were long divorced, so it was two completely different conversations. Mom sent JW'S. to me and lo and behold- they were the ones that God wanted me to tell of my personal experience with the Almighty. The whole thing made sense to them and they explained why God saved me and what God wanted me to do with my life- you know.... He wanted me to sell Watchtower literature for Him.
I actually completely faded before genuine counseling helped me realize I just could not pull the trigger and locked my finger and that the whole episode was of my own ideas of how God would guide me.
TT of course chimps aren't guilty of sin, their animals.
Animals are not people, and people canno/should not equate human ways with or onto animals. It ends in disaster.
They cannot talk, they cannot reason, they cannot take in knowledge.
The clan wars and cannabilism and eating meat of other species of monkies. Is about dominance and male agression.
Only one group (humans /creation) - that's not really very balanced thoughis it, or fair - to be warm and fuzzy.
You see you have not addressed domestic animals, which was what I said. Domestic and wild animals are entirely different entities, they are poles apart.
Animals are quite capable of being warm and fuzzy, even chimps, they have a social structure and hierachy, (but they are what they are)
Have you seen how a mother will defend her babies.
More people are killed by non - caniverous animals than they are by lions, tigers etc.
Cows can be dangerous, they will run you down and trample you. There are many factors which have to be considered.
Have you seen how an animal will defend their owners.
Dolphins have saved people from sharks. Once a pig, yes, proper pet pig, saved a drowning child. Dog did the dame thing, no connection to the child, took off running from it's owner one day, walking on the beach, it ran off, round rocks, out of sight, then into the sea and saved a child.
Monkeys, wild animals sheltering/raising human children in the wild.
Men who can co-habit with wolves and be accepted into the pack to be studied.
Even with animals there are acts of kindness, love, nurture.
But animals are not humans.
edit; ps, you cannot on the one hand make statements and lay blame on God, if there is a God, without accepting the Devil, which clearly explains why there is pain and suffering, which therefore absolves God. You can't say everything is God's fault because he created Satan, a perfect angel who chose to do bad. and is responsible for all of the pain and suffering man has suffered as a result.
On the way out - WTF dude, seriously, I believe you. Are you ok now.
one question, deep down in your heart, if you think God did help you (for whatever reason, don't matter ), do you feel you owe him.
