by Seraphim23 136 Replies latest jw friends
Personally, I have no idea what to beleive in...after knowing TTATT, I have no interest in religion, but Im becoming more interested in doing voluntary activities.
It's like starting all over again...I mean, the thought that one day all the bad things happening would be solved "soon" vs why does "soon" take forever to come?
Kool Jo
Buddhism teaches suffering or dukka,
is a disturbance in the mindstream
and the end of suffering as state of nirvana,
somehow it all leads to elimination of
suffering and acceptance of suffering.
I struggle with the presence of injustice and evil,
as in, the abduction of children, recent case of the three
girls held captive for years - its inexplicable;
if we see God as an attendent and a caretaker
and a fixer of problems - yet there is consciousness and
being and spirit and beauty, and connectiveness.
I do believe we are our brother's keepers and we are stewards
of the earth and we must act or be acted upon.
May be things were set in motion and the outcome is
a mysterious movement of consiousness toward a higher consiousness
I feel things are improving, even though some things are disintegrating
and evil continues. How can I hope to see the universe
when seeing my own existance is so difficult ?
Its like the Heisenberg Principle of Uncertianity.
The Uncertainty principle: Werner Heisenberg stumbled on
a secret of the universe: No thing has a definite position,
a definite trajectory, or a definite momentum.
Trying to pin a thing down to one definite position
will make its momentum less well pinned down,
and vice-versa. We came out of a philosophy of absolute certainty,
where we were taught "perfect knowledge" and
"total security from error"
So from a mental state of being without doubt,
we now face the mystical uncertianty of just being.
although i spent a very short time trying to feel comfortable claiming to be a deist, wanting desperately to believe... i have pretty much given up on the concept of a god... i am deeply amused every time i hear someone declare "you believe in atheism" and have relieved myself of the responsibility of enlightening anyone...
that being said, i begrudge no one their faith..... i just have no interest in hearing about it... ever
Cofty - wrong there buddy.
That sentiment is what drew me into the faith.
( I will add, there see to be a massive difference with american set up and people than the jw's I know )
I have, how do I put this..... a connection to nature and animals. the miracluous things that happen in nature, and the evidence, truly it is amazing.
Having faith or some form of belief system, is a system of understanding, it is to also have a constraint.
(better to be a jack of all trades ... than a master of one )
I like all things oldey worldey. I like learning about prehistoric life and the journey of the earth and peoples (different civilsations, cultures etc. ) up to our modern day.
What I do notice with a lot of peepes is the WT hate/blame/shame game.
WT didn't do it do you folks, sorry, you all did it to yourselves. We are responsible for our lives, no one else. jw's haven't experienced anything no one else in the world has. Who's fault is it - mans.
Like I have said before, people are so busy hating and bashing God - they let the Devil off scot free, for people who should know so much about the story of the Bible and it's message, all the answers are there. whether one wants to accept it or not is up to them. But the argument should be fair and balanced.
Like I have said before, people are so busy hating and bashing God - they let the Devil off scot free, for people who should know so much about the story of the Bible and it's message, all the answers are there. whether one wants to accept it or not is up to them. But the argument should be fair and balanced.
I used to think that too. But then I got to thinking...Would the harm that came to my children for putting a snake in their playpen be: a) the childs fault, b) the snakes fault or c) my fault? I think the answer is obvious. I could never really reconcile gods reasons for doing that. But it's a great control mechanism for men who invented these ideas assuming you don't believe it's of the divine.
The answers in the bible were only satisfactory for a time for me because I lacked critical thinking skills and actually believed that the end would come soon (tm), so you put up with things, thinking it will all be resolved soon, but after decades of trying to rationalize the bibles answers they just stop making any sense to me; the many mistakes and inconsistencies point to it being a man made fantasy. Even if it was truth, the picture it paints of the future is basically a celestial north korea with bright lights, and cute animals. I always wondered If it was so great why did 1/3 of the angels bail out on it? I have so many questions, and have found so few satisfactory answers to the bibles assertions. But I respect that others continue to find comfort in scripture. This is a forum is full of many different perspectives, and the free exchange of ideas and information that we have here is what many including myself find stimulating.
tt2care
Actually putting a snake into your childs play-pen, is different to owning a snake that escapes and gets into he childs play-pen. Like one doesn't leave the new baby unattended with the family dog, ever.
Some animals are also what we term 'bad uns'. If we breed dogs and breed a bad un, are we responsible ? If we purposely selectively breed dogs for those bad traits, then yes we are. If we selectively breed for good traits, and a bad un gets thrown up, then no we are not. It's nature, we cannot control everything. Especially nature.
Once the balance is upset, it throws everything else out of sync. Who upsets the balance, man. He may do so in ignorance, fair enough, but if he does so deliberately, then he is responsible.
Consequences of ones actions can have far reaching effects. sometimes devastating. Eg marital affairs. Drug abuse etc.
the story goes (hypothetically/theoretically)
the devil was perfect. what the story does not say is ....
how many years was the devil watching man for before he tempted eve ?
did he develop an inclination to a bad heart/disposition before man was created or after.
why did he go bad - like cain - just like man.
what did he crave.
worship, power, adoration, domination ? (who knows) but again - just like man.
how long was the devil watching eve for before he made his move. Notice he went for eve, the newer more naive of the two creatinons, the 'child like one'' - just llike man
like a predetator he spotted weakness. - just like man
was he lustful for the woman - just like man
did he become obsessive, consumed with desire, lust, greed, spite, power, domination, control - just like man ( if so how long a period of time was this going on in him before he acted)
the snake, hissing, if you research it a bit it says something like (memory fails me here) casting a spell, hypnotising ( think the snake of jungle book, trussst in me !)
the angels had/have serious power.
did the devil eat of the tree first. was he tempted by the thought of it, the power of the knowledge.
did the fruit have any actual power or was it set up simply as a means of test
did God already know what was going on with the Devil, is that why he put the tree there, as a test, to obtain actual evidence against the devil and see would the first human pair stay faithful or deviate. ( think law)
there are so many things we don't know, don't understand. so many un-answered questions. so much ignorance. the book of enoch, why is it mentioned in Jude. why was it kept hidden / concealed all these years, why were we never taught about it. along with the other 'forgotten' books.
the book of enoch
most Christians feel it is of the devil (why so then would it be mentioned in Jude ) and not of God.
the book exposes Satan and is Satans worst nightmare. IF the book is true, then Satan would do everything in his power to keep it out of the churches, AND HE HAS DONE.
It's not about believing, it's about having the knowledge and understanding of WHY. Being able to answers the questions in one's own mind.
<------ Apatheist. Don't really care.
*lost*
I havn't read the book of Enoch, perhaps I will.
Still, the bible puts some heavy demands on those that choose to follow it (e.g. remain no part of the world etc.) and like you mentioned above there is so much missing information in the story, I just think that if there were a personal god who really cared he would do a better job of getting the complete and accurate information out there so people can make informed choices and not get so misled for so mellenia. It doesn't seem logical to undertake such heavy burdens in lifestyle based on such partial and potentially dubious information. So far he really hasn't provided the why, and we are only left to speculate.
I really don't buy the satan/man argument either. If you were an owner of a nasty pitbull that bit and injured someone, most rational people would do the sane thing and put a bullet in that dogs head, so it can't continue to cause harm, not cast him into the playpen with inferior beings so to speak, this totally violates the "prime directive" on all levels.
If satan and men in their perfect state "go bad" as you say, what does that say about the designer, his environment, or his expecations of them from the outset? Perhaps he needs to re-adjust his definition of what he believes is "bad" a degree or two to account for his mis-calculation of freewill, to make existence more enjoyable. I just can't imagine bowing down to god for eternity being very interesting, my thoughts are that the 1/3 didn't either. So as it stands now hopefully you can somewhat understand why some have great difficultly with putting faith in a personal god who is supposed to care, and be loving.
Mrs Jones I actually was an apatheist from the time I was 13 until I was 47, just a year ago. Today, after learning about ttatt and other christian fundamentalists beliefs, I have become anti-theist. Too much harm is being done by religion. In fact, in politics I sided with Republicans in most issues. Today, given their large support by anti-science fundamentalists, I am hesitant to identify with any party.
When I realised I had been raised in a cult, I tried to cherry pick the bits I liked for a while. I started by reading the Gospels in the order they were written, using Moffat's translation, until I got to the story about Jesus getting pissed off with a fig tree that didn't have fruit out of season. This story didn't make sense to me.
I then realised that everything I thought I knew about gods had come from the cult .... everything .... nothing I thought I knew could be trusted .... I had to start from scratch, not letting my cult upbringing influence me. Why should I pick on Christianity? Because I was born into a pretend Christian family? Was Genesis just as much a fable as The Dreaming, or any other culture's creation myth?
I eventually clicked that Ian Anderson wasn't far off the mark on the cover of Aqualung a couple of decades earlier ...
In the beginning Man created God;
and in the image of Man
created he him.
2 And Man gave unto God a multitude of
names,that he might be Lord of all
the earth when it was suited to Man
3 And on the seven millionth
day Man rested and did lean
heavily on his God and saw that
it was good.
4 And Man formed Aqualung of
the dust of the ground, and a
host of others likened unto his kind.
5 And these lesser men were cast into the
void; And some were burned, and some were
put apart from their kind.
6 And Man became the God that he had
created and with his miracles did
rule over all the earth.
7 But as all these things
came to pass, the Spirit that did
cause man to create his God
lived on within all men: even
within Aqualung.
8 And man saw it not.
9 But for Christ's sake he'd
better start looking.
