Infinity and god - why wait to create the universe?

by Simon 108 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  EntirelyPossible

  If you unchange X, it will remain X ad eternum. But if X changed, you must conclude by deduction or observation that something caused it to change. That's the principle of causality. The absence of a cause is an impossibility in physics.

  *sigh*.... Again, you are taking what we see in this spacetime with out physical laws and trying to apply it to a scenario that is completely different because "common sense". You cannot extrapolate what pre-BigBang conditions were based on post-BigBang conditions. What you describe IS A primciple of physics....in OUR spacetime with ITS specific properties. You cannot extrapolate that an environment outside of our spacetime.

  Therefore, the gravitational conditions that determined the emergence of the universe necessarily had an a priori cause, and there was a time interval between the two.

  You are now presuming gravity in the pre-BigBang conditions! Remember, these are the rules INSIDE of OUR expanding spacetime. We can't tell what is outside of our existing spacetime, what the conditions are, the physical rules.

  For instance, did you know there is a concept called imaginary time? Mathmatically, it's very usefule in quantum mechanics, it may help explain pre-Big Bang conditions, it's completely alien to "common sense" and it's unproven.

  My point is is, you CANNOT rely on your experience in this spacetime to make extrapolations about what came before it. It's unobservable.

  Therefore, time precedes the beginning of the universe. Infinity does exist. We just cannot comprehend it. And that's ok.

  You can assert that, but you have not provided any proof, either logical, mathematical or physical.
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  Marvin Shilmer

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  From a perspective that God created our universe, the problem of “before” or of who or what created/caused God is by definition something beyond science because the perspective has “before” and God as extra-universal rather than inter-universal, meaning “before” and God are aside from our universe rather than of our universe.

  As readers know, science is an objective means and method for examining our universe. Science is not a means and method for examining anything other than our universe. Hence science is neither constructed nor intended to examine “before” or God.

  From a scientific perspective “God” is analytically impenetrable. This is scientists’ main gripe about notions of God. Human mechanisms of cognition have not established a testable protocol to qualitatively or quantitatively determine, analyze and figure out what or if God is, let alone “origin” concepts of God.

  Human knowledge as advanced to a point where humans have some success analyzing the universe. But analyzing something other than our universe is something human knowledge can only guess about, and usually this is done based on an assumption that any extra-universe existences are something like our universe when that may or may not be the case.

  I think the point where scientists cringe is when believers in God make attempt to use science as a means and method to qualitatively or quantitatively make assertions of “God” as though science is an appropriate tool for the purpose when it’s not.

  Science is a tool established by humans for human consideration as a means of testing. It's very useful, and in fact insofar as we know it's the best method we have. But in the grand scheme it’s akin to bacteria concocting an analytical tool that’s useful for a bacteria when the bacteria has no idea the universe it lives within is a human body with influences far beyond its own, not to mention power that from a bacteria’s perspective is unlimited.

  Marvin Shilmer
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  EdenOne

  You cannot extrapolate what pre-BigBang conditions were based on post-BigBang conditions

  You cannot extrapolate that an environment outside of our spacetime.

  We can't tell what is outside of our existing spacetime, what the conditions are, the physical rules.

  you can assert that, but you have not provided any proof, either logical, mathematical or physical.

  EP,

  then we must agree that, since you don't have any empirical knowledge of the conditions before (or outside) the Big Bang, your speculation is as good as mine. But at least I can speculate based on empirical rules observed on the present time-space. To deny infinity based on time and space rules that are yet to be observed is ultra-speculative.

  But hey ... that's just ole me saying ....

  Eden
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  prologos

  Simon, I have here , in a few month come to realize how unbelievable the Bible is in many of its stories, I found it had shaped my and perhaps our thinking on infinity and God, the concepts..

  Here what I see:

  Time is eternal, infinite, it is a given. so is "god"(if any)

  We MOVE through time, measure that MOVEMENT.

  "GOD" does not, has not, will not move through time.

  "God" was bigger as the big bang SINGULARITY and always will be bigger as the expanding universe.

  Time being infinite, started to be WOVEN into our space-time 4 dimension continuum at the big bang that we think of as

  the BEGINNING of time, but that is really

  the beginning of our MOVEMENT through infinite time.

  4 scriptures at beabeorean.com "the bible on space and time".

  we tossed "the rock is too big for God" around in the 1930s to prove ther is no mighty, INFINITE god, but

  it really only proves that our BRAINs, even beter than mine, do not have the HARDWARE and

  our MINDs do not have the SOFTWARE to deal with INFINITE strength or duration., aka Time and Energy.

  How LONG was there nothing BEFORE there was something? ALWAYS.

  Stationary TIME is three TIMEs in that sentence.

  TIME, the infinite, the stationary, is a given.

  as long there is a "god", there is time.

  the serious pre-big bang researchers are trying to track that pre-big bang time down and nail it.

  scientist are doing this research because it ENTIRELY POSSIBLE that there is "pre bang TIME" PBT.
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  EntirelyPossible

  then we must agree that, since you don't have any empirical knowledge of the conditions before (or outside) the Big Bang, your speculation is as good as mine.

  It always amuses me what people tell me I must do....

  *sigh*.... I don't agree. You are making assertions about unobservable conditions. I am pointing that your assertions cannot have any proof as you claim. One is speculation, the other is pointing that out.

  To deny infinity based on time and space rules that are yet to be observed is ultra-speculative.

  I swear, grade school needs better science and critical thinking classes.

  No one denied the possibility. I am simply showing that there is no way to know if your assertions hold any water and the flaws in reasoning from common sense. It is the OPPOSITE of speculation.

  The only thing that is ultra speculative is taking what we know (not enough) about local conditions and attempting to say they apply somewhere else that has no measurable or observable qualities.
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  EntirelyPossible

  How LONG was there nothing BEFORE there was something? ALWAYS.

  What do you mean by "nothing"? I asked you that months ago when you started with your "God is outside of time" stuff and you have yet to answer it. You are clearly just saying something that sounds sciencey in your head so it works with the Bible. It fails on observation.

  Or, as Cofty said, a purveyor of woo.

  Notice to Cofty, I am stealing that....
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  prologos

  EP: it is not "god" OUTSIDE time. it is

  "god" INSIDE time.

  Time is infinite, staionary, the ur, infinite eternal, pre-big bang dimension.

  Try to think of time as STATIONARY, like in train Station

  We, on the TRAIN, or in the car, as MOVING.
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  Simon

  prologos: time is not an arrow moving smoothly in one direction. We only see it that way because we have such a very limited view of it. In the same way that to us, a straight line is absolutely straight but from far enough away it's curved because space itself is curved - we live in euclidean space and don't see the difference.

  The hard thing to grasp is that an 'event' doesn't occur at the same time relative to everything else. It may have occurred before some things and after others differently based on where you are standing / floating or whatever. There is no 'now' other than for us in our little spot.
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  EntirelyPossible

  Time is infinite, staionary, the ur, infinite eternal, pre-big bang dimension.

  How do you know this? What is your evidence? Multiple experiments and observation shows that time as we know it is an integral part of space, indeed, that's why it's called spacetime and it IS expanding.

  Try to think of time as STATIONARY, like in train Station. We, on the TRAIN, or in the car, as MOVING.

  That analogy doesn't make sense. You can be on a train and never pass a train station. And the train station is moving (since the earth is moving).

  And what do you mean by "nothing"?

  **UPDATED** Simon, I sent you a PM. Thanks!
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  prologos

  simon, it is only my own thinking: but

  There is nor ARROW of time. TIME has no SPEED, no DIRECTION, it just IS, The UR, time is stationary and always was.

  We are MOVING like cars on a divided one way Highway in different lanes in different speeds.

  There always was time, the land. then they build the highway on it, the 3D universe, then we started driving living.

  The Universe the 3 dimensions and its content matter started MOVING through only at the big bang, but time existed before,

  and serious researches are working to prove it.