by Simon 108 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
There is nor ARROW of time
There most certainly is.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrow_of_time
The Universe the 3 dimensions and its content matter started MOVING through only at the big bang, but time existed before
It is unknown what existed prior to our spacetime, however, spacetime is expanding. Space and time are the SAME THING.
and serious researches are working to prove it.
Who? What is their research? What are their hypotheses? Where are their papers?
Time isn't something that the universe exist 'in' ... time is something that the universe causes to happen.
Without the universe, there is no time and no 'day before the universe'.
Unless you want to believe in an eternal god. Then explanations make no sense and you need to explain why the universe wasn't created the day before it was and what god was doing for infinity on his own.
Religious people never seem to have an answer for that.
Time before the big bang universe is a serious research subject for physisists.
The 3 dimensions can be theoretically thought of to exist without movement Through time.
Who says and has PROVEN there was no time before there was space and its energy matter content?
There is no arrow of time.-- There is an arrow indicating our direction and movement through time.
Arrow is matter, and we are part of it and are flying through time. look at your time-speedometer, its called a clock.
Uhr = Clock in middle European, Einstein's working language, from "ur" the original, quintessential, eternal.
Eternal time thinking is a linguistic, not a religious thing.
Think of yourself as sitting on the arrow of space, traveling through time, it was aimed forward, into the future.
but future time already exists, it has for eternity.
If you traved the movement of the arrow back to its start, the singularity of the Big Bang, it would stop. its wrong way MOVEMENT Through Time would stop.
But Time would not stop, it never moved.
there is no day, a measure of distance MOVED or traveled THROUGH time before the big bang.
There was no yesterday before the first day of the universe. because there was no Movement (wrong, or any way) THROUGH stationary time.
Characterizing those that search for proof of time BEFORE the Big Bang Beginning as religious, is not helpfull to the discussion at hand.
Since "God" does not move either, there is no measured time he did wait, twiddling his thumbs?
as is said It is his perogative. only busy bodies would reproach his idleness- if any. and
then of course ther is the century old
"he was preparing a hot place for those that ask questions like that, a very hot place" answer.
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“…need to explain why the universe wasn't created the day before it was and what god was doing for infinity on his own.
“Religious people never seem to have an answer for that.”
I can’t speak for religious people because I am not a religious person. But I see no burden to explain why “God” didn’t create the universe the day before (or after) when the answer is as easy as saying “I don’t know” or "What does it matter?"
If there is a creator “God” then presumably he has some prerogative; hence whether he chooses to create a universe and when might just as well be up to him at his pleasure.
I also see no burden to explain what “God” was doing for infinity on his own when the answer could be “Whatever he wanted to do”. For all we know if there is a creator “God” he was busy creating other universes prior to creating ours.
There are good issues raised in this discussion, but I fail to see any burden to explain either of the above. So what am I missing? What burden exists to explain “why the universe wasn't created the day before it was and what god was doing for infinity on his own”?
Marvin Shilmer
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“Time before the big bang universe is a serious research subject for physisists.”
What we know as time is part of our universe; hence it did not exist prior to the existence of our universe.
Marvin Shilmer
I'm enjoying discussion carry on.
Marvin, please think of your clock as the speedometer on your car. The second hand on your antique car.
That clock measures the Earth MOVEMENT through time. The milage counter the distance travelled THROUGH time. ---as you said "time we know in the universe".
The Time counter reads 14.6 Billion years travelled,( The time that we know inside the universe) since that car started moving . talking about antique, wow.
That is all we know about time. but:
It is reasonable or possible to understand that there was TIME,( a road) so to speak
BEFORE
that car, (the universe) was made or appeared and
STARTED MOVING.
Even, as some think the universe started as a zereo-sum energy fluctuation in the pre-big bang condition,
you are dealing with "pre"=time movement fluctuation: acceleration = distance/time squared.
A good picture of this is to think of TIME filling your room, and you inflate a balloon,
The skin of balloon picturing 3d space, with on dimension removed for clarity.
The rate of expansion through time is the radius, at right angle to the surface, space. but as Marvin said, we only know time inside the universe, the skin of the ballon we measure not the radius but expansion along the the skin, inside space. BUT
That does not mean that there was no time inside the room before the balloon started to inflate.
The right angle of time to space is reflected in our GRAPHS where one axis is TIME, the other DISTANCE.
Where ever you exist, you always move at the radius, at right angle to you time.
Prologos, what evidence do you have for any of this? You said scientists were working on this? Who? Where are their papers? What is their hypothesis? What observational evidence do you have that indicates anything other than what is known today? Why does faster movement through time mean slower movement through space? If time is stationary and it is us that is moving, why can we not move backwarks through it?
Do you have anything to support your ideas since they contradict all experiement and observational evidence?
Simon, if you can wrap your mind around your reasoning in the OP, then why not just replace universe with God, and use the same reasoning as you did for no time before the universe?
Peace,
tammy
I see no burden to explain why “God” didn’t create the universe the day before (or after) when the answer is as easy as saying “I don’t know” or "What does it matter?"
If there is a creator “God” then presumably he has some prerogative; hence whether he chooses to create a universe and when might just as well be up to him at his pleasure.
Ok, technically there is no 'burden' for them to answer. But if they seriously want to push a hypothesis of how the universe originated and are not happy to say that "they don't know" and instead want to push doctrines then I think they should have answers to questions.
If their hypothesis makes no sense when you ask certain questions and all they can come up with is the typical glib "it's a mystery" reply then I don't think they can complain when people redicule them for believing nonsense.
The argument that god could do anything is bogus. He could have created everything 1 millisecond ago with fake memories of us all posting on a forum for years and having this conversation plus hid dinosaur bones in the ground just to puzzle us. I don't think that sort of argument is reasonable to sensible people.
Why would something that had lived for eternity need to create something? Think about something existing forever and suddenly deciding "hey, I know what I'll do !". It's ludicrous.
