Question regarding Faith...(adamah)

by tec 210 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  tec

  I am asking... because I do NOT know.

  Jgnat, is it not you who have told me that I am wrong... that faith cannot have evidence? Christ IS evidence of God. So that if one builds their faith upon Him (rather than upon false things that can be torn apart), then one's faith is solid. Nothing can tear it down because it is based on TRUTH.

  I mean, most of these conversations come from people saying that a person of faith is just believing blindly and they cannot know, and so they are irrational, blind, etc, etc. Start speaking about Christ being alive and speaking... and well, the claws can come out. But unlike what some assume, bearing witness to that truth is not done to brag, or to be 'special'... but to witness to the truth, because He has asked us to do this; and for the benefit of those who ARE seeking and DO want to hear, that something shared might help THEM. Obviously, not everyone wants to hear, especially if it goes against what they believe. But there are those who DO want to hear, who ARE seeking, and sometimes what is shared may help them go to the ONE who is being borne witness about.

  My only assumption with you... and one that could be wrong and I acknowledge that... is that I think you do have evidence for your faith ( a reason for your faith) , and perhaps you just do not acknowledge/understand it AS evidence, or simply do not want to share it. I could be totally wrong, and you do not have to tell me. Your faith between you and your God... unless you want to share it and/or are compelled to.

  But I share as I am given (spend the talents)... especially when people ask me about it. Regardless of what others think or say about me when I do. Because it is not ME who matters.

  I get that we are not going to agree... and that is okay. I can agree to disagree, and perhaps one day there will be understanding between us.

  May you have peace,

  tammy
• 

  jgnat

  Jgnat, is it not you who have told me that I am wrong... that faith cannot have evidence? - tec

  Not quite. I have told you that your faith is not based on evidence, and that your faith cannot be substituted for evidence. Your personal testimony is not testable by others, and therefore is not evidence. You use the scripture, "Faith is the evidence of things not seen..." as a basis to link the two.

  I think you are in a cognitive trap because your faith cannot allow for any doubt. If you allow it in, your faith has failed.

  My definition allows for doubt and my personal beliefs demand that I doubt, test firmly held beliefs.
• 

  zound

  Thanks for the explainations tec. Appreciate your openness in talking about this stuff.

  Not to criticise your experience you mentioned being in the car, with the warm sunshine etc. But would you consider that it's possible that whole experience could simply have been something concocted by your mind and there was no supernatural element present?
• 

  Hummingbird001

  tec:

  Yes, but most people don't even have a little bit of faith.

  Nice.
• 

  tec

  Apognohpos... I too, have, never seen an atheist talked into having faith. I might have seen a believer talked out of their belief though... but that can only happen, imo, if they did not KNOW Christ, to begin with. Because if you KNOW someone, you cannot be convinced that they do not exist.

  Faith is a gift from God. Faith allows one to hear, to hear what the Spirit is saying, to hear and recognize truth, to seek truth, to hear the call to come to Christ.

  (With some exceptions, I believe that we are born believing and seeking God. Man teaches us otherwise; teaches us to place our faith in other things or that there is no one there and that knowing/seeking is imaginary, or some such other thing.)

  One may also ASK for that gift of faith, though.

  However, each demonstration that shows your faith in Christ and God to be true strengthens that faith. So that when someone says... you have no evidence for your faith... you may say, actually I do. I KNOW Christ to exist; so I CAN put faith IN Him, and since He shows God, I CAN put faith IN God. I know that what He tells me is true, because He has always BEEN true. He keeps his promises; he speaks truth, and so I can put my faith in Him for anything He says, and put faith in all of his promises. So that my faith is based and built upon Christ, the Truth. Since Christ shows God... then my faith is also in God.

  So that by this, one can see that one's faith is not based on nothing, nor is it blind. It is assurance, confidence, knowing, conviction... based on Truth, that is heard. Faith in things not yet seen... but have been promised, have been heard.

  Peace to you,

  tammy
• 

  Narcissistic Supply

  Athiest believe in nothing. who can argue with nothing.
• 

  adamah

  TEC asked-

  Does that not contradict what you have been stating... that faith cannot have evidence, or it ceases to be faith?

  No, and you seem not to grasp the difference between DISPLAYING one's faith to others vs what intangible evidence is used to BUILD one's faith.

  Not surprising, since you've had a hard time discerning between what is visible vs invisible, reality vs a product of imagination, etc (and in all truth, religions don't exactly ENCOURAGE individuals to discern the difference, since it's not in their best interests to do so. Faith IS a subject which I suspect MOST believers THINK they understand, when they really DON'T; in fact, the Bible is contradictory on what faith is, how it manifests, etc. That's why Hebrews 11 is somewhat refreshing, in that it actually tries to clarify and provide a definition that so few believers even bother to try and grasp).

  But anyway, back to your question:

  When you are reading the accounts in the OT of the "men of faith", you do understand that YOU (Tammy) aren't actually there personally witnessing the actions as they occur, right? You aren't able to enter Abraham's mind 4,000 yrs ago and KNOW what he was experiencing and thinking/feeling as he offered Isaac to Jehovah, right?

  Instead, you're reading an ACCOUNT of an individual who may or may not have existed, where the account was written in another language and culture which was even far-removed in place and time FOR THOSE READERS who "Paul" was addressing in the letter of Romans, set 2,000 yrs from THEIR time.

  So accepting these stories as actual historical events for us and them requires ALOT of FAITH, as does accepting the NT letter of Hebrews, itself! "Paul" understood that time spent reflecting on the accounts in the Torah was a FAITH-building activity (that is, if the person reads the accounts and believes them without questioning at face-value, they are BUILDING their faith). Perhaps even moreso of an opportunity to build FAITH for for modern readers, given that the plausibility (or more accurately, the IMPLAUSIBILITY) of the accounts is even greater for US than for a Greek-speaking Jew living in Jerusalem (the likely recipient of the original epistle).

  Adam
• 

  tec

  Thanks for the explainations tec. Appreciate your openness in talking about this stuff.

  You're welcome, and thank you, but of course.

  Not to criticise your experience you mentioned being in the car, with the warm sunshine etc. But would you consider that it's possible that whole experience could simply have been something concocted by your mind and there was no supernatural element present?

  No worries, I don't take questions as criticism.

  Theoretically, I could consider that possibility. (I have on various occasions in the past.) But I could not be honest with myself or with you right now, and say that I believe that even for a moment.

  Because I know better. I have heard too much... and been shown too much... and received understanding and answers that I know did not come from me... to be able to doubt the One speaking to me, or His Father. Although even back then, I knew that God was present, and that He had heard me, and that He would do as I had asked, as He willed.

  And I know enough now - even intellecutally - to recognize from that experience, that peace from my Lord.

  Not because I am special or good (I am not)... but because HE is faithful, and HE keeps HIS promises.

  May you have peace from Him also, if you want it,

  tammy
• 

  adamah

  NC said:

  Athiest believe in nothing. who can argue with nothing.

  Nope. Look up the definition of atheist, since apparently you don't even understand what you believe and WHY, you don't understand what atheism even means.

  I dare say if you looked in the mirror, you'd find you are engaging in "projection": accusing others of what you actually base YOUR beliefs on: nothing but FAITH (which is nothing). As a rationalist, I based ALL my beliefs on TANGIBLE, VERIFIABLE EVIDENCE. You cannot claim the same, and that fact irks believers to no end when they finally understand that's exactly what Paul is saying that faith IS: a LACK of visible evidence, on which their OTHER beliefs are built. Didn't Jesus even warn of the risks of building on sand (more paradoxical sayings of Jesus)?

  Adam
• 

  Apognophos

  FWIW, I've never heard anyone get talked out of being a Christian (nor an atheist). Just sayin'.

  R u 4 realz? Read the MANY accounts of ex-believers, including Cofty (who comes to mind, since I was reading of his experience recently). Heck, I've read about 5 testimonials in this thread alone, on the first page.

  I see no such testimonials on that page. I do see people saying that they came to this or that conclusion based on studying the Bible or science books. Only a couple of them actually came to the same conclusion. My point was that you cannot force someone with logical argument to believe the way you do. We all ultimately believe in whatever it's our nature to believe in. But it's your time to waste as you see fit, of course, on arguments with Christians or anything else.

  NOW, if what you REALLY meant to say YOU didn't WANT to HEAR of Christians getting talked out of their religious beliefs, then THAT'S another matter entirely. Cognitive blinders, et tu?

  NB: It helps if you know what someone believes when you argue with them. It prevents you from making accusations that make you look foolish. If you'd paid attention to any recent statements of mine like "I'm not a faithful person", you would know that I don't believe in the Bible. I'm basically an agnostic.

  You DO realize there's absolutely NOTHING preventing you from getting an undergrad college degree, applying to med school, becoming a medical researcher and conducting those SAME experiments which allowed earlier men to gain the knowledge, except doing it yourself?

  I don't even think we're taking part in the same argument anymore, and in fact we probably weren't from the beginning, especially since you like to first label everyone mentally as "friend" or "fool" and then base your arguments on a caricatured version of the person you're talking to. If you had simply been responding to what I was saying instead of what you thought I was really saying, we would probably be in total agreement.

  I'll just say this before I go off to do other things with my time: your statement above is fallacious because you can't tell me what I would find if I went to school and examined all the evidence firsthand. Personally, I believe I would come to the same conclusions as the majority of scientists, but then again, who knows? Have you gone through that work yourself? Have you even verified the simplest fact experimentally, such as the shape of the earth? And even if you have, how can you tell me what conclusion I would come to if I examined the evidence? Sounds like someone is dabbling in faith.