by tec 210 Replies latest jw friends
Didn't Jesus even warn of the risks of building on sand (more paradoxical sayings of Jesus)?
Yes, the foolish man... as opposed to the wise man who built his house upon the rock.
Which house could not fall, because the foundation was SURE.
Peace,
tammy
but that can only happen, imo, if they did not KNOW Christ, to begin with. Because if you KNOW someone, you cannot be convinced that they do not exist.
I thought I knew Jesus when I was a JW. I was convinced, I would have even died for that belief if the circumstances played out that way (thankfully they didn't). I think you and me can both agree that I was oh so wrong.
Because I know better. I have heard too much... and been shown too much... and received understanding and answers that I know did not come from me... to be able to doubt the One speaking to me, or His Father. Although even back then, I knew that God was present, and that He had heard me, and that He would do as I had asked, as He willed. And I know enough now - even intellecutally - to recognize from that experience, that peace from my Lord.
I'd ask you to look at the following video. It is something called a "God Helmet", that activates a part of the brain which gives people the sense that they are 'not alone'. It has been used on various people of different faiths, or some with no faith at all. The point is, this kind of experience you describe is something that can be explained in our makeup - humans are very suseptable to delusion - especially deluding oneself.
I can't watch your video at the moment, Zound, though I think I have seen it before, or something similar. I'll take a look for you when I can though.
And I do understand what you said... about thinking you knew 'Jesus'. But knowing someone and knowing about someone so you feel as though you know them (through writings and testimonies designed to point you toward Him)... are two different things.
I knew about Christ when I read about Him... it was enough for me to want to follow Him based on what I read about Him, and to believe in Him based on the truth in his teachings... but that was not the same as truly KNOWING Him. If you want to know someone, you go to THEM. Like reading about someone... and reading that he says come to ME, anyone who wants to... and so you accept that invitation, and you go TO Him, hear Him and talk with Him and you come to know him, as opposed to just knowing about him.
No one would be able to convince you that he did not exist after that.
Well, the Spirit might not be seen... but He is heard, in spirit. Sometimes he speaks and answers in direct words; sometimes in images; in dreams; in reminders (like a scripture brought to mind or something else); sometimes in recognition of truth; sometimes in understanding granted. Might depend on what the person, themselves, can bear to accept... at a given time.
Peace,
tammy
Boy, that escalated quickly!
Ron Burgundy
tec is not able to see others points because she cannot conceive of a reality different than she experiences. To understand others opinions would be to acknowledge the possibility of what the say being true. I don't mean this as a slam or slight, just an observation.
My various states of faith and hope have been a work in progress over the years and will probably change yet again.
I am currently convinced that FAITH is an emotion and it is based on a valuation or valuations.
I'll give an example and hope nobody faints.
Let's say your significant other (for me, this is just theory, mind you) tells you over the phone that when you
get home from work you're going to have the best sex you ever had.
It is early in the day.
Your mind and your body and your metabolism and brain chemistry are going to co-operate with this EAGERLY LOOKED FORWARD TO event.
You will be in a state of arousal simply due to anticipation and desire.
Now, let's consider one thing more about this. What if you--for whatever reason--have erectile dysfunction and a state of anxiety takes over
your anticipation and turns it into doubt and worry?
Compare that to FAITH and loss of FAITH.
In both instances you want something to happen and you are eager for it and it excites your sense of anticipation.
Yet, both can be disturbed by doubts if you don't preserve a positive state of mind.
A QUESTION:
Would it be possible to use the word FAITH if the object of thought, belief and hope were something awful?
JW's have faith in the coming war of Armageddon.
Is this event a matter of FAITH because JW's get all the goodies when the slaughter is over?
Before I got born-again, I thought I new what faith was. Looking back I had it all wrong. Christian faith has as its foundation at least three things:
1. Confirmation of the existence of a transcendant God, him having interacted personally with the believer
2. Confirmation of membership into his family, "the holy spirit bears witness with our spirit that we are the children of God"
3. A KNOWING that you are in a saved or pardoned condition.
Faith rests on the realities, and trusts the object of that faith Jesus, in that - a.) he'll return for his own b.) will rule the world c.) will do all of his other promises
No one would be able to convince you that he did not exist after that.
This ABSOLUTE conviction in something that admittidly went on in your head and your feelings is a little scary.
The whole JW situation came from those ***holes in Brooklyn taking advantage of peoples 'faith' or 'hope' to believe in certain things. Perhaps deluded themselves, but regardless, the Brooklyn boys encouraged this 'blind faith' - resulting in JW's that regardless of the evidence, regardless of anything they may see or hear about Watchtower's lies, regardless of their own doubts they WILL GO DOWN WITH THE SHIP. They will weather any storm and eventually die thinking that armageddon is just around the corner etc etc.
I think most ex-JW's would know at least one JW like this - the Watchtower doctrine is so much a part of their brain that the Watchtower society could completely self destruct and these diehards will ignore it completely and stick with what they are totally convinced is true.
The point of mentioning that is - you say that this time you've cracked it! This time you are REALLY convinced. This time you KNOW. Nothing could possibly convince you otherwise. No room for doubt.
Do you see what I'm getting at here? You can replace the JW experience with a Muslims experience, with a Budhists experience, with any number of persons experience that do not even have anything to do with a particular religion.
It's easy to say, "well they were just deluded, they are just misled - they are listening to Jesus but not KNOWING Jesus."
You are claiming faith. ABSOLUTE conviction. Unshakable. Anything me or others have to say could not possibly shake your faith. Any evidence could not possibly shake your faith about Jesus.
Can you see the similarities in this conviction with convictions such as the JW's or lets say that woman in the US who drowned her children in the bathtub because 'Jesus told her to'. You've attempted to explain the distinction, but could you have another attempt at how you see the distinction there?
Hope I'm not coming across as aggressive - I'm asking these things to challenge my own beliefs also, not just to try and prove a point.
On a side note:
You are willing and fairly good at explaining your reasoning (though I don't agree with it) - I wonder if you would mind giving me some feedback in the near future on a project/article I'm working on regarding trying to teach people critical thinking ability? I'd appreciate a firm believers feedback, suggestions on it - and you seem very articulate, engaging and definately a firm believer.
tec is not able to see others points because she cannot conceive of a reality different than she experiences. To understand others opinions would be to acknowledge the possibility of what the say being true. I don't mean this as a slam or slight, just an observationan.
I will take it as an observation then : )
I can, however, conceive of realities other than what I have experienced. I write. I can conceive of MANY kinds of realities, lol.
I can examine them. I can test them. As I can examine and test what others say or put forth. I can even understand them. Understanding something does not mean that it is true, mind you.
But simply, the evidence that I have leads me TO Christ, and to God, and affirms my faith in Christ and God. Nothing contradicts that. I have nothing against anyone who cannot or does not accept that, nothing at all... but I can't deny it.
Peace to you! tammy
I have read the last few comments, but I have to get off the computer for a while, so I will get back to you. Not trying to ignore you at all. (though I'd like to ponder your question for a bit, Terry, on the subject of having faith in something harmful)... and no, you're not coming across as agressive, Zound.
Peace,
tammy
About the difference between sure and faulty foundations....
It irks me that the WTS takes the account of the Bereans and pretend that their members similarly take a hard look at the WTS's doctrines and find nothing lacking. It is assumedthat all is sure before the student even looks.
Tec, you similarly take your faith as the starting point, and smash any argument against that surety ... regardless of the testability of the argument. If you cannot entertain any doubt, your surety is false.
