How do believers defend a god who is going to murder billions and pin it on them? (page 24)

adamah

Sorry for the brief reply: I wrote a lengthier in-depth version, but it disappeared due to a track-pad malfunction (frustrating when that happens!).

Anyway, I wanted to ask Latin Thunder about this eyebrow-raiser:

LatinThunder said-

It should be used in conjunction with the Torah and the Talmud.

Really? Gutsy move (which you've claimed before), but how do you square that claim of reliance on the Jewish Talmud with your professed belief in Jesus, who constantly deprecated those serpent-like Pharisees for their reliance on man-made rules?

You DO understand that the Talmud wasn't even assembled in written form until a few hundred years AFTER Jesus died, and contained a written record of extra-Torahic interpretations which were the SAME rabbinical man-made laws added to amplify upon the written Law of Moses, a practice Jesus vehemently protested against?

Oh, and with all the Bible study you're done, surely you can answer this question?

Per the Bible, WHEN did Jehovah FIRST prohibit the spilling of the blood of another human being?

Adam

latinthunder

Really? Gutsy move (which you've claimed before), but how do you square that claim of reliance on the Jewish Talmud with your professed belief in Jesus, who constantly deprecated those serpent-like Pharisees for their reliance on man-made rules?

Reliance on the Jewish Talmud? What do you mean by that? I simply claimed that the Torah and the Talmud, when used together, are extremely effective for the training of righteousness. The Sanhedrin was a corrupt organization that didn't follow their own laws and they were in bed with the Romans. Jesus exposed them, not their law.

You DO understand that the Talmud wasn't even assembled in written form until a few hundred years AFTER Jesus died, and contained a written record of extra-Torahic interpretations which were the SAME rabbinical man-made laws added to amplify upon the written Law of Moses, a practice Jesus vehemently protested against?

" By their fruit you will recognize them. "

Per the Bible, WHEN did Jehovah FIRST prohibit the spilling of the blood of another human being?

The law not to eat of the Tree of Knowlege was a law against suicide, or the spilling of human blood.

tootired2care

Latin thunder - do you realize you just contradicted yourself?

The Garden of Eden is a spiritual place, not physical which is why it's described in allegory.

Per the Bible, WHEN did Jehovah FIRST prohibit the spilling of the blood of another human being?

The law not to eat of the Tree of Knowlege was a law against suicide, or the spilling of human blood.

adamah

Latin Thunder said-

The Torah and the Talmud still hold lasting value even for people today. They have stood the test of time and should rightly be considered God-breathed. You can confirm this yourself if you choose to put in the work.

Can you give us ONE (and only ONE) example of how you have personally put this advice into play in your own life, i.e. cite specific passage(s) of the Talmud (which of course contains discussions amongst rabbis, discussing the Torah scriptures, amplifying on them) which you're found to be personally beneficial, and in your own words, "extremely effective for the training of righteousness".

The law not to eat of the Tree of Knowlege was a law against suicide, or the spilling of human blood.

That's a LOT of eisegesis, even for a Christian, no?

And as TOOTIRED2CARE pointed out, what happened to your claim of the Garden of Eden being symbolic/allegorical/spiritual, etc? You seem to want to have it both ways, huh?

Remember, what I asked was, when/where in the Bible (i.e. what scriptural passage) did God give to mortal HUMANS the "no-bloodshed" law?

Adam

latinthunder

Latin thunder - do you realize you just contradicted yourself?

TT2C, have you ever noticed that the further you get into the Torah the less abstract imagery is used? This is because in the beginning there is no separation between heaven and earth, that's why spirit creatures dwell in the same "space" as earthly. Only after the Fall does the serpent become the common snake we know today, existing on it's belly. Only after the Fall does man and woman become what we know them to be today. The Torah is telling us that the beginning of mankind existed on a plane that is well beyond our current comprehension. To describe it at all requires devling into very deep imagery and storytelling. So, when someone asks, "when did Jehovah first prohibit murder" the answer is in that spiritual plane, before the existence of what we know as reality. Which is depicted by a Tree of Knowledge of Good and Bad.

tootired2care

The Torah is telling us that the beginning of mankind existed on a plane that is well beyond our current comprehension.

What "plane" is this exactly? Are you suggesting that the beginning of mankind was non corporeal?

latinthunder

Can you give us ONE (and only ONE) example of how you have personally put this advice into play in your own life, i.e. cite specific passage(s) of the Talmud (which of course contains discussions amongst rabbis, discussing the Torah scriptures, amplifying on them) which you're found to be personally beneficial, and in your own words, "extremely effective for the training of righteousness".

The first verse of the Torah is extremely beneficial because it teaches faith in God and his powers of creation. Without faith that God created everything, the proceeding verses and chapters will make absolutely no sense whatsoever. Once you have your faith, everything else falls into place. It's simply remarkable. You must have the Spirit to understand the things of the Spirit, and without faith the Spirit is not with you.

That's a LOT of eisegesis, even for a Christian, no?

Please stop calling me a Christian when I have stated otherwise.

And as TOOTIRED2CARE pointed out, what happened to your claim of the Garden of Eden being symbolic/allegorical/spiritual, etc? You seem to want to have it both ways, huh?

See my response.

Remember, what I asked was, when/where in the Bible (i.e. what scriptural passage) did God give to mortal HUMANS the "no-bloodshed" law?

In the story, humanity understood why the existed in a state of death, because their parents fell from grace. The characters know their own backstory. You seem to be trying to argue that no one knew of the law against death which is not true. The whole reason they existed in a state of suffering was because the law of life was broken. To kill again would just be adding insult to injury.

What "plane" is this exactly? Are you suggesting that the beginning of mankind was non corporeal?

I am saying that the Torah is making that claim, yes. Earth and heaven in the beginning were not separate, but linked. Once the inhabitants of earth sinned, earth separated from heaven along with them (and the spirit creatures who were party to it). Which means the whole purpose of humanity is to defeat the evil spirits who took us captive and to travel back to our original home. "A new heavens and a new earth" which are linked like they were in the beginning.

redvip2000

To be fair, God has no basis for blaming mankind (or part of it) for not believing in Him. A God who has the ability to do everybody but does nothing, is not in a position to judge. A God who has the ability to convert all humans into believers but continues to hide in a shroud of inactivity and fuzzy logic can't bring judgement to mankind.

If tomorrow, God cured all cancer in the world, and fed all children in Africa how many people in view of this evidence would convert into believers? Surely many millions, or billions. How much effort would this take from God? What else does he have to do?

Yet, nothing. Silence. Inactivity. Passiveness. While millions of humans continue to excuse this, in the most creative ways, in order to somehow maintain the belief alive.

caliber

Contempt is a secondary emotion (not among the original six emotions as classified by Paul Ekman, namely: anger, disgust, fear, happiness, sadness and surprise) and is a mix of the primary emotions disgust and anger

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contempt

Adamah ....I thank you for responding to my request for your prime emotion or feeling towards the concept of God.. have a pleasant day

A frank & honest answer ... thanks

cofty

Please stop calling me a Christian when I have stated otherwise. - Latinthunder

The Spirit" IS a name. Regardless, there is actually only ONE divine name, the Highest Name which was given to Christ Jesus (Philippians 2:8-11).

Yes, Yahweh = Christ = The Spirit all are coequal, coeternal and separate persons.

Latinthunder post #6 - 30th August 2013

How do believers defend a god who is going to murder billions and pin it on them?

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