If anyone TRULY believes in God, they wouldn't be telling HIM what parts of the Bible they're willing to follow, and telling Jesus what he REALLY meant. Instead, they'd be studying HIS instructions for humanity, and if they weren't able to figure out it's the oldest scam in the book (and in fact the Holy Book IS the inspiration for that expression), they'd at least TRY to determine what His Divine Will is, and follow it, not make up their own.
How do believers defend a god who is going to murder billions and pin it on them?
by tootired2care 327 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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tootired2care
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adamah
Aren't billions dying of decay, old age, sickness anyway? God is the source of life, not death.
Heck, I'll just put everything I learned about cellular basis of death in organisms while earning a biology degree as if it doesn't matter (!), and play this one from the theological angle.
Did you forget the account of Jehovah taking ACTIVE STEPS to post an angel with a flaming sword to block Adam and Eve's access to the life-giving Tree of Life after they sinned? Heck, you're arguing against your own Holy Bible here, OT and NT, since the Bible consistently explains God as being responsibile for why people grow old and die: sin is the cause of death, per both the Hebrew and Christian Bible.
Romans 5:12
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned--
Sin is defined as 'violating God's Divine Will', and the punishment for violating Divine Will caused death for everyone, per Romans 5:12 (and there are others).
Heck, Jesus supposedly cured people of their diseases by forgiving them of their sins, since disease was also seen as resulting from sin, thus leading to untimely death.
Adam
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exwhyzee
When I say to a wicked person, 'You will surely die,' and you do not warn them or speak out to dissuade them from their evil ways in order to save their life, that wicked person will die for their sin, and I will hold you accountable for their blood. - Ezekiel 3:18
If JW "A" goes on vacation and misses an opportunity to warn John Doe of his wickedness and the impending destruction, God will kill John Doe for being wicked as well a JW "A" for not warning John Doe.
If JW "B" comes along while JW "A" is on vacation and warns John Doe of his wickedness and of the impending destruction and John Doe heeds that warning and is saved, will JW "A" still be killed for not warning John Doe when he had the opportunity ?
It always struck me as odd how JW's believed the end was coming any day and knew what Ezekiel 3:18 said yet would go off on tropical vacations instead of spending thier vacations knocking on doors warning people.
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adamah
xyz said-
If JW "A" goes on vacation and misses an opportunity to warn John Doe of his wickedness and the impending destruction, God will kill John Doe for being wicked as well a JW "A" for not warning John Doe.
If JW "B" comes along while JW "A" is on vacation and warns John Doe of his wickedness and of the impending destruction and John Doe heeds that warning and is saved, will JW "A" still be killed for not warning John Doe when he had the opportunity ?
It always struck me as odd how JW's believed the end was coming any day and knew what Ezekiel 3:18 said yet would go off on tropical vacations instead of spending thier vacations knocking on doors warning people.
I've got a JW relative who works in tech support with computers, and I ask him about the bandwidth capacity needed in Heaven in order to read the thoughts and minds and prayers of 7 BILLION people on the Earth simultaneously, PLUS the bandwidth needed to handle the communication needs of an army of angels (not to mention the sheer computational processing power and data storage capacity needed to keep track of stuff like you mentioned above).
Then I like to point out how even in a simpler time than ours, Jehovah and his angels of death couldn't keep track of which houses contained Jews during the Passover in Egypt, so God needed the Israelites to splash blood on the door frames so no mistakes would happen?
God couldn't help his Chosen People solve murders in Ancient Israel, so they had to use the heifer ritual to absolve themselves of bloodguilt?
Adam
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tec
TEC - your last comment about Jesus and his charge to preach and trying to reconcile it with other passages of bible, and the point of this thread are as clear as mud;
Hard for me to respond, as I don't know what you did not understand. But I think you do not understand because you are not seeing how someone who does nothing to warn his brother against doing evil, when TOLD to warn them, is not also responsible... in law, you can be held accountable for something like that... for knowing of a crime and doing nothing to prevent it. So I am not sure what is so confusing here?
TEC, you're not suggesting we all should just ignore the scriptures in Ezekiel, Isaiah, Deuteronomy, Job, etc, as if they didn't exist, as we see fit? (I know: "lying scribes" excuse, AKA The ORIGINAL Conspiracy Theory to cover up the word of God, who cannot do ANYTHING about it, as if He weren't Omnipotent, or anything like that!).
The Word of God is Christ. But I am not sure what you think I am ignoring. Was Ezekiel just kidding around about the death threat for failure to intervene in the sins of another? How about you quote the exact passage you are talking about. Not that it matters. It is not in conflict with what I shared: One warns out of love, and shares for the same reason, as one is given to warn and/or share. Now, the prophets did not always warn out of love for others (Jonah for example). But that does not meant that one should not BE warning out of love. As has been learned from Christ. Which, again... not sure why you insist on going to the OT to know God... when Christ says, "If you know me, you will know my Father." And the reverse, "You do not know ME, so you do not know my Father either." You so not know God unless you first know Christ.
Do we ignore all the passages in the OT about how the Chosen People would be vomited out of the Promised Land for failing to enforce the 'Law of Moses', and the examples of the Jews actually HAVEN BEEN exiled and taken captive by the Babylonians and Assyrians, when that explanation was offered, as if they were just joshin' around?
I'm not sure what your point IS, in regard to this topic.
So none of those death threats are meant to be taken LITERALLY?
How are those death threats?
But you think YOU deserve "special pleading", an exception being given from us to believe that YOUR actions are PURELY driven out of LOVE for others, as if you've got no skin in the game? Sure, "the other guys" do it out of FEAR and to save their own necks, but NOT YOU!!!
Out of love for Christ and God... and many times out of love for others (but not always; sometimes just out of love for my Lord, which means doing as He wants for those that HE loves. Like loving the ones your loved ones love, just because THEY love them.) My fear comes from not wanting to disapoint them, for the most part, and once or twice because I do not want to be 'bloodguilty' for not having warned them. (lack of love on my behalf... and my Lord knows my failings, as we all have failings, and his love and his blood may cover those failings, for those who are in Him... and from Him, I am learning love, and the truth of where I LACK, so that I can cover that up - love being a great cover, as love covers a multitude of sins) I don't care about special pleading... you can believe whatever you want. Because it really isn't about me. One SHOULD want to warn another, out of love for them, to help them turn and come to life. We ARE our brothers' keepers. At least love would denote that we would be.
TEC's "we do it out of LOVE for our fellow men, we just love everyone SOOOO MUCH!"
I said ONE warns out of love. Christ warned out of love. The rest of us... well, maybe we warned out of love for CHrist and God, and maybe... until we learned love, did so so that we would not be found guilty of not having shown love and warned our brother.
is the same mantra a JW told me a few weeks ago, as if I didn't know about the etiology and evolution of the concept of justice which comes from Ezekiel and Isaiah, and which was melded into other ancient ideas of justice to blossom into that which is shared by Christians and JWs, needing to save their own necks at Armageddon, even throwing their own family members under the bus in the name of their "LUV" for a brutal God.
Love does not throw another person under the bus, and certainly not one's own flesh and blood. Adam threw Eve under the bus. One lays down one's own life for those that one loves.
If anyone TRULY believes in God, they wouldn't be telling HIM what parts of the Bible they're willing to follow, and telling Jesus what he REALLY meant.
You're right.
That person would be listening to CHRIST... letting HIM tell THEM what is true, and what was meant, and what Christ means now and then.
Just because other people would not agree with anything shared, because they rely on themselves to know the truth and have their own interpretations of what is written... means what to the person who is listening and learning from Christ?
You think that you know the scriptures, Adamah... but there is so much in them, so much nuance, so much interpretation... you seem to forget that the apostles/disciples needed their eyes to be opened... so that the scriptures were opened to them. They didn't do it on their own. No one can.
Instead, they'd be studying HIS instructions for humanity, and if they weren't able to figure out it's the oldest scam in the book (and in fact the Holy Book IS the inspiration for that expression), they'd at least TRY to determine what His Divine Will is, and follow it, not make up their own.
Perhaps you should take your own advise here, Adamah. Because you are following your own interpretations.
Again, they would try to understand what the will of God is, what his instruction is, and he made it very clear: Listen to my Son. He even said when Moses and Elijah were present. It was not listen to Moses; or listen to Elijah (prophets)... both of whom pointed to Christ... but rather, listen to CHRIST.
Moses also said to listen to Him. So if you are going to listen to the law of Moses, you are going to listen to Christ.
Aren't billions dying of decay, old age, sickness anyway? God is the source of life, not death.
Yes.
Peace,
tammy
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exwhyzee
Aren't billions dying of decay, old age, sickness anyway?
Yes....only because God (supposedly) chose to curse Billions of humans rather than punish the two who were (supposedly) at fault.
If I maimed one of my Son's in some way so that his children would be born with painful defects, I'd be considered a sick-o. Even (supposedly) wicked human beings can see the wrong and injustice in that. Seems like a supreme being such as God would have been able to come up with a better plan than that. Everything that (supposedly) happened in the beginning was a mess from the get-go. Why were humans created to live forever but animals (supposedly) were ment to continually grow old, get sick and die and new ones born to replace them. What's the point in that? None of it makes sense to me and I'm taking a wait and see attitude regarding God, the Bible and religion from now on. None of it is proveable and I'm not about to go around acting as if I know what it's all about, ever again.
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prologos
xyzed: if you read it right,
Humans were NOT CREATED to live forever inherently.
They needed the tree of life for that. could not get to it, that is why
we are dying a natural death, like the animals
The fact that they needed the tree of life diet implies they would die with out it, like the animals.
death is the consequence of life be happy you have it.
when you give birth, does that make you responsable for the inevitable, eventual death that follows?
Who says God did the flood, S&G,the red sea drowning? stories, proof please. left overs,
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FlyingHighNow
I'm a believer. I believe in a higher power. I don't believe this higher power murders anyone.
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cofty
Of course. When you invented your god you made him all cuddly. Impotent but cuddly.
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FlyingHighNow
God is bigger than man's murderous solutions for man's problems.