Just this simple fact of life is proof of God.... (page 3)

Captain Obvious

EOM this has been discussed at length on this board but sure, I'll bite.

No, abiogenesis has not been recreated in a lab in the way we would have needed it to be to start evolution. That is no reason to discard the whole thing, as organic self-replicating compounds have been created using basic inorganic matter.

Consider this: all living creatures have something in common... DNA. All of your DNA is written in the same "language" as every other living thing on earth. The reason you are a human and not a squash, is because of your genes. I'm sure you're not ready to challenge genetics. The fact that DNA is all written the same way for every living creature points to a single point of origin. A single event where life began. If god did this, why not write out DNA code in a more suitable format for different creatures? Why create beings with the genetic challenges they have? Is he lazy? many genomes have been traced and mapped, and every time it shows evolution to be true.

But this thread isn't about evolution is it. So EOM let me ask you this: are you willing to resign god's hand in creation of life to the first single celled organism? Because the fact of evolution, if you want to stick god in there, doesn't need help.

You mentioned that we are made of dust... Yes technically so. Everything in the universe is made of the same stuff, so why shouldn't we? You ask why couldn't life have come from intelligence... Why should it? It certainly could have, but there is no more reason to believe a supernatural being created anything in our universe than there is to believe aliens planted us here. It is simply implausible and unnecessary.

Nathan Natas

Nice try, EndOfMysteries. Too bad you are undereducated in the sciences.

IF god made man from the dust of the ground, why did he choose to design our DNA so that it so closely resembles that of simians and ALL OTHER MAMMALS?

Why is man, the "crown of creation" burdened with deficiencies in the design of his skeleton? Our knees and shoulders STINK from a design point of view. Is this the best god could do, or did Adam and Eve have skeletons that are far superior to ours, ours having decrepitated as a result of "sin"?

Why is it that nowhere deep within any organism can we find a byline that says, "made by god"?

You simple proof fails in the light of simple logic.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Did you know that there are simple, inorganic chemicals that are self-organizing? In other words, given an environment in which the raw materials for these compounds are present, the compounds will form spontaneously and "reproduce" "in their own image" until the supply of raw materials runs out.

In the past, (early 20th century and earlier) man lacked the technology to grasp the secrets of the universe. People believed the bible was true because

a) the bible said it was true and

b) there were no viable alternative explanations.

So lots of science was done to "prove" the bible was correct. Unfortunately, in virtually every field of investigation - chemistry, astronomy, archeology, geology - those "proofs" were never found. Instead evidence began piling up that the inerrant word of god was wrong about so many things. Astronomy showed that the earth was not the center of the universe, nuclear chemistry showed how all of the elements "evolved" from hydrogen, archeology found not a single trace of the Israelites wandering in the desert for 40 years, geology shows that life evolved on earth over billions of years, not the 6000 years claimed by Bishop James Usher, who in 1925 backtracked his biblical "begats" and concluded that Adam was created on October 23, 4004 BC, thus launching the field of Bible-based™ chronological speculation.

Think about it - only 50 years before Pastor Russell started his career, the date of man's creation was "discerned."

adamah

Alecholmes said-

Who created God?

God's God, of course (who was in turn created by HIS God, and we're in a recurrent loop):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODetOE6cbbc

Hence why saying "God created life" accomlishes nothing, but merely kicks the can down the road for a millescond or so.

Adam

DJS

Yes, what Adam said. A loop. What came before that? Then who came before that? And who created him/her/it? Ad nauseum. When was going through my true believer/theist/agnostic/atheist travels, I had similar thoughts. But when it came down to it, minus the science and the bible (both of which I studied for a long time), the thought of a god - especially as we were taught that he is loving, we are made in his image, he cares for us, blah blah blah - was irrational. When I reflected on the age of the universe and the planet, the time humans have spent evolving on a mostly inhospitable planet (it has been VERY difficult to be human on this planet for tens of thousands of years or longer) and considered that 'god' didn't provide any written instructions until a few thousand years ago was, to me, overwhelming evidence of the lack of such imaginary creatures.

And that written instruction is laughable for any real assistance or guidance it provided humans. Most if not all of the Bible's 'wisdom' was written long before by others. Come on people. The all powerful Oz couldn't do any better than the Bible, of which tens of thousands of interpretations have existed through the millenia, none of which have proved the ONE (yeah as JWs we thought we had it)? Dear god, I could provide better instructions on a rock. And this so called god loves me, views me as his cherised son? I suppose you also have a bridge you want to sell me.

I have a son. And a daughter. I am crazy stupid close to both of them and have been since the day they were born. I wouldn't ever, in a trillion years, have treated them the way your god has treated me and the countless bilions of humans who have walked the planet. To all those before the bible was written I suppose the message from god would be to figure it out on your own. Sorry boutcha. Or maybe he/she/it was in another part of the universe and didn't return for a while. I could certainly writen a compelling sci-fi movie script about it. Star Trek - the search for god.

And the message after the bible was written I suppose would be to spend your entire effing life trying to read between the lines or figure out which one of his/her/it's spokespersons had the real 'truth.' Geeesh. The only real surprise is that there are any theists. If we would maximize the potential in our DNA there wouldn't be.

BackseatDevil

@cofty

I would hardly consider the experiment a failure. The ammount of testing and research, experimentation and hypothosis it started has been amazing in the wake of the Urey-Miller model. It single handedly answered the question that was posed here whether it " was possible that life can just appear out of nothing."

The answer is yes. It can. The failure only came because they were trying to be very specific in control in a very uncontrolable time in Earth's history. So it is obvious, sustainability and actual evolution is more complex but one would expect that in an environment similar to that of the Urey-Miller model (conceptually) that after a few billion years of being in constant play, it only takes one time for something to go very very right.

Laika

This is an example of argument from personal incredulity

Ah, ok. I'll try not to make that mistake again...

Watkins

Is the atheist's argument mainly, or firstly, based on what the Bible says or doesn't say?

Just wondering...

w

xchange

No. It would be mainly based on the claims that people make on behalf of the bible.

Laika

Is the atheist's argument mainly, or firstly, based on what the Bible says or doesn't say?

I'd have thought both... depending on circumstances.

cofty

I would hardly consider the experiment a failure. - Backseatdevil

Of course not you are quite correct. I said it was a failed hypothesis not a failure as an experiment. It was a fantastic experiment, one of the most important ever. It didn't actually answer the question about life though. It showed that amino acids can and do self-assemble, and that is an important step in the process but it isn't life. Even given billions of years, tons of amino acids and any amount of lightning, life will never appear in an "organic soup".

It was a vital part of the search for the answer to the question of abiogenesis but it is a dead end.

Is the atheist's argument mainly, or firstly, based on what the Bible says or doesn't say? - Watkins

I'm not sure I understand your question, could you elaborate please?

Just this simple fact of life is proof of God....

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