Just this simple fact of life is proof of God....

by EndofMysteries 95 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • tec
    tec
    No life does not come from an imaginary god.

    You'll get no argument from me on that.

    If your god exists then exisiting is all it does. HE/she/it is redundant.

    My God does far more than simply exist... and this statment of yours is getting redundant.

    Yeahhhh. We've all kinda sorta heard all that before and moved on from it. It is embarrassing (and arrogant) that you interject the prayer bead, hail mary, krishna mantra into an otherwise intellectual discussion.

    DJS, the title of the thread is "Just this simply fact of life is proof of God"... so I don't think I've gone off topic.

    Trying to drag us back down the evolutionary ladder, huh?

    Still think you're a couple of rungs UP that ladder, huh?

    We know it gives you comfort (that warm and fuzzy feeling again we discussed last week),

    I'm not sure you paid attention, if that is what you think then.

    just as counting beads and repeating prayers and chanting mantras do for believers. I do believe in ghosts I do I do I do. I do believe in ghosts I do I do I do.

    I don't count beads; I don't have any mantras, and I don't repeat such things... why would I? I don't 'believe' Christ exists. I know it. So I don't really need to repeat it to myself... or to you... in order to convince myself. I get that this is perhaps what you had to do when you were a believer, but that doesn't mean... even remotely... that all who believe, and certainly not all who have faith, were like that.

    If you repeat it over and over you will continue to reinforce your beliefs and annoy the hell out of everyone else.
    But Captain Obvious makes a relevant point about such, as he stated that you and others like you are helping the lurkers and others with doubt move away from theism. So maybe you should just continue and I should develop more tolerance.

    This 'point' is just something that atheists like to say to get a dig in at theists, in the hopes of 'shaming' them into silence. You might want to develop more tolerance, mind you. Since I made one comment on this thread, and you could have just skipped it over if it annoys you so much, instead of making a big rant about it. I never attacked anyone else's post. I simply shared as I understand, and people can take it or leave it, as they choose.

    We know you feel and believe these things. We truly do; we were on that side once.

    No... I don't think you were; because you don't seem to know what I am talking about. I realize that you think you were... but your words show otherwise. Again, peace to you, and Cofty as well, tammy

  • cofty
    cofty
    I don't 'believe' Christ exists. I know it

    Are there any threads that are not an opportunity for you to boast about the voices in your head?

  • DJS
    DJS

    Tammy,

    You were my sister in Christ at one time, and I have no desire to flame you. Your arrogance is historic. Learned men are having an intellectual discussion and you bring rosary beads and mantras to the discussion. You should be ashamed of yourself. I know lots about lots but I'm humble enough to admit there are many more things I know lots of nothing about. Cofty and some others impress me in their knowledge. When they say things I question, rather than entering the discussion in an impulse control challenged manner I do some research to see if I can: a. refute their facts; or b. refute the logic supporting their facts. So far I haven't been able to. That's it baby. Stay out of these discussions unless you: a. bring facts or can refute someone else's facts; or b. support your facts with logic or refute the logic someone else is using. With facts, empirical data but not your fuzzy feel good mantras. Please. I'm pleading with you. Otherwise you are a troll to me and I won't respond to anything you say. And if I do I will sarcastically and snidely address your rationale but hopefully not you.

    It's really that simple. In addition to your historic lack of humility, you also seem to lack impulse control. And you love the attention. (snide remark alert: I will send you the psychotherapy bill in the mail; i take al major credit cards). Why can't you sit at your computer and simply LEARN something rather than making your embarrassing attempts to prove something by saying the same thing over and over and over. Facts and the logic supporting those facts please.

    There are plenty of biblical purely theological discussions on this board; you don't have to enter where you don't truly have the skill sets to enter. Go argue about your all's interpretation of 1 John 3:2 or whether the slave class truly stood up in 1919. Frankly, those discussions nauseate me. I'd just as soon have a rusty nail driven into my brain with a hammer, and then rinse and repeat, as I would to ever carry on one of those discussioins again. In my perfect world these types of things would never be discussed. But hey, in my perfect world lots of things would change. But I digress.

    So you are a troll; I won't respond to you again.

  • tornapart
    tornapart

    DJS:- There are plenty of biblical purely theological discussions on this board; you don't have to enter where you don't truly have the skill sets to enter.

    So why is it when the christians on this board try to start a thread about their beliefs, atheists come along and try to derail it and mock and ridicule? Aren't they being trolls too?

    EOM. I've pondered those questions myself too.

  • DJS
    DJS

    Tornapart,

    I completely agree with you. I don't do that for the same reasons I find it annoying. May be this discourse will help each side respect the other.

  • cofty
    cofty

    I also think it is a fair point.

    The problem comes when believers cross over from faith to fact.

  • MadGiant
    MadGiant

    Haven't read all posts, only the OP but.

    "EVERY lifeform on Earth, humans, plants, bacteria, cells, ANYTHING with life originated with other life."

    I agree with that. But it's not magic.

    "All trees come from living seeds from other trees, etc. There is no life that comes from nothing, even simple cells."

    I agree with this to. But remember that it's a proses of natural selection. In you example, trees comes from seeds because that was the reproductive method that work. Remember that almost half the plant species in the world reproduce asexually, without creating seeds. Seed-bearing plants can also reproduce asexually under certain conditions. The daughter plants resulting from asexual reproduction are genetically identical to the parent plant. In fact, they are less daughters than clones of the original. Plants can reproduce naturally without seeds by many methods, including sending out runners and developing bulbs or tubers which split off bulblets. Plants also reproduce without seed via human intervention, such as through cuttings and grafts or by a gardener physically dividing a root clump with a shovel. All these are examples of methods that work better for the plants. (Still using your plant example), There are some fishes and reptiles that can change sex.

    "So God forming these things then putting his life force into it, him being the originator of life for the start of these things, is the only thing that makes sense."

    This opens a very interesting proposal. You admit that life need a creator. Who/What created the creator? I know that it sound stupid, but think about it for a minute.

    "If it was possible that life can just appear out of nothing, and all life on Earth just happened,"

    Follow the evidence.

    "why can't intelligent life do it? Instead of the billions of lifeforms on Earth that just happened to happen somehow, why can't we trace how they all originated and create any type of life we can imagine."

    At this moment humans are doing research. Remember, you are talking about DNA the genome project started in 1987 (I think). A working draft of the genome was announced in 2000 and a complete one in 2003, with further, more detailed analysis still being published. We still in diapers.

    "Why would it still not be happening today? Why would it have stopped? "

    It still happening. Natural selection is the gradual natural process by which biological traits become either more or less common in a population as a function of the effect of inherited traits on the differential reproductive success of organisms interacting with their environment

    "Also think about this, according to the bible, man was formed out of soil. Written long before we knew the properties of soil such as copper, iron, calcium, zinc, etc. Our bodies need all of those things to survive and function properly. What happens if you are deficient in copper, iron, etc. It certainly seems like we were formed from soil and the start of life was God's lifeforce going into us." "I can understand Agnostic thinking because of distrust from anything written, but for athiests, not believing life came from a God seems even harder to make sense of since no life on Earth originates from plain dead matter. Do you have alternative explanations?

    " Yeah, Instead of asking for an answer, why don't you do some research first. Read a couple of books about each subject you just mention. Read form apologists, opposers, critics (neutral sources) and draw your own conclusions.

    Take care,

    Ismael

  • adamah
    adamah

    DJS:- There are plenty of biblical purely theological discussions on this board; you don't have to enter where you don't truly have the skill sets to enter.

    Tornapart said-

    So why is it when the christians on this board try to start a thread about their beliefs, atheists come along and try to derail it and mock and ridicule? Aren't they being trolls too?

    DJs provided the answer to that one, too: perhaps Christians shouldn't participate in "Biblical purely theological discussions" if they "truly don't have the skill sets to enter" those kinds of discussions, too!

    Point being, from our time served in JW Land we've presumably had a gut-fill of the emotional, "But Jesus LUVS you SOOOO MUCHHHH!" devotional/emotional nonsense that it rings as the pure clap-trap devoid of reason, thus serving it's purpose of being the thought-stopping mantra that it's intended to be.

    That stated, the OP ASKED a question (although he claimed to possess PROOF of God in his title?), so I have no problem with that kind of approach. Remember: if believers don't start threads like these, those who KNOW better and disagree really won't have any REASON to discuss these topics.... I'm an atheist, but I enjoy reading BOTH SIDES, since I learn alot from those I agree with, too.

    Adam

  • rawe
    rawe

    Hi EndofMysteries,

    You already have several replies, so some of what I will say will be a repeat of what is already posted -- please excuse that. Like many former Witnesses who are now atheists I wondered about exactly the same things. My conclusion for many years -- Jehovah was indeed the "Grand Creator" (Ecclesiastes 12:1).

    "EVERY lifeform on Earth, humans, plants, bacteria, cells, ANYTHING with life originated with other life."

    This is a very important point! And at least for examples of living things today it argues against God being the direct creator. I mean in the here and now. If you saw a puppy or a blade of grass it would be silly to suggest God created that specific instance of that living thing. We know enough about life on earth to know...

    "All trees come from living seeds from other trees, etc. There is no life that comes from nothing, even simple cells."

    Exactly! Life today comes from parent forms of that life, which as I say, happens outside of any supernatural intervention. But we know even more than this simple fact. By looking deeper at life, we can see it is all related. Exact sequences of DNA in the cell of a banana can be found in human cells. In fact the closeness of such relationships is why we can eat bananas and get food energy from them.

    "So God forming these things then putting his life force into it, him being the originator of life for the start of these things, is the only thing that makes sense."

    At this point your logic gets to an "origin of..." question that is attempting to build on your early observations about the origin of living things in the here and now. There are three interrelated origin of... questions in this area.

    (1) Origin of living things in the here and now. Non-supernatural answer: From parent forms of the life. Supernatural answer: Each life form is directly created by a superbeing we would call God.

    (2) Origin of species: Non-supernatural answer: Parent to child forms of life change over time and natural sorting/selective pressures can result in completely new species. However, if one had a complete record of all life ancetors on earth eventually one would get back to a LUCA (last unified common ancestor) of us all. Supernatural answer: In a process outlined in the Book of Genesis through a period of six creative days, God created specific species fully formed and ready to reproduce. Lastly he created Adam and Eve. There is of course a range of views on how involved God was, from he created only the first life form and let natural selection take over, to Genesis is literally true, even to the point the creative days were 24 hours long and happened just over 6000 years ago.

    (3) Origin of first living thing: Non-supernatural answer: Earth existed without much free oyxgen and a moon much closer than it is today. Tidal action, lightening and energy from the sun, eventually resulted in chemical compounds that could replicate themselves. No controlled experiment has been able to demonstrate the exact pathway from non-living matter to the first self replicating system. So we would properly say, we don't know at this point exactly how the transition from non-living matter to the first living thing happened. Supernatural answer: God created the first living cell.

    "If it was possible that life can just appear out of nothing, and all life on Earth just happened, why can't intelligent life do it?"

    The non-supernatural answer is not that life appeared out of nothing. The proposed solution involves interactions between physical things, like the planet earth, basic chemistry, etc. We see all sorts of intelligent design around us, but none of it (so far) involves the creation of self-replicating life. An Ant hill is an example of something that was designed and created by the collective inteliigence of the tiny brains in all the Ants. However the Ant itself is the product of a completely naturalistic process of life making copies of itself.

    "Instead of the billions of lifeforms on Earth that just happened to happen somehow, why can't we trace how they all originated and create any type of life we can imagine. Why would it still not be happening today? Why would it have stopped?"

    The phrase "just happened to happen somehow" tilts towards the over-used word "chance" that often appears in the anti-evolution publications. The scientists who study life on earth and how it changes have worked out a great number of details that regulate the process of evolution. The theory of evolution is not about "chance" in the way Witnesses often portray it. There are known reasons why mating two dogs will not produce a cat. Yet at the same time, we can be fairly confident both a dog and a cat had a common ancestor in the past. Most of the tracing back in these cases involve either DNA sequencing and/or examination of fossils.

    Evolution as a process has not stopped and in fact is a big concern to humans who worry about new forms of life that can arise and cause disease. But if you're asking why the earth does not produce new life like it did for the first living thing, I think that answer is twofold -- the amount of oxygen in the air would be a problem and existing life would so destroy any new, likely very fragile, life forms that spontaneously formed. In other words, you need the special conditions of the ancient earth to exist as the stage for the transition from non-living to living matter.

    "Also think about this, according to the bible, man was formed out of soil. Written long before we knew the properties of soil such as copper, iron, calcium, zinc, etc. Our bodies need all of those things to survive and function properly. What happens if you are deficient in copper, iron, etc. It certainly seems like we were formed from soil and the start of life was God's lifeforce going into us."

    In some respects, ideas can evolve and survive in the way life does. Thus, I think it is entirely possible the material in Genesis is like this. Genesis 1:1 to 2:3 is from one source that calls God "God" and at 2:4, you see a second source where God suddenly becomes "Jehovah." This is a sort of co-mingling of literary DNA that gets itself copied, because it appeals to the minds of humans. Thus for an ancient person who could make the connection between soil and farming it might make total sense that humans also must have come from the soil. Or in the reverse when a living thing dies and rots it could appear to be returning to the soil.

    "I can understand Agnostic thinking because of distrust from anything written, but for athiests, not believing life came from a God seems even harder to make sense of since no life on Earth originates from plain dead matter. Do you have alternative explanations?"

    I self identify as an atheist, although I would say, proving the non-existence of something may not be possible. I shy away from "agnostic" because for me, it doesn't seem productive to just keeping saying "I don't know" rather than take the limited bit we know and come to some conclusion until something better comes along. Untimately "life came from a God" is circular reasoning, since if you believe God is a alive, then one must answer how such a complex living thing came into existence.

    God also violates the general pattern of the Universe and Life. Complexity has built up over time and often very slowly. Stars like our Sun and planets like Earth are a more recent invention of the Universe. Multi-cellular life only comes about after years and years of single-cellular life. And humans? Just 3.7 million years. So... to place the most imaginable complex thing, God, at the start, does not fit the over all plot line we can detect.

    Finally the biggest problem is this: If one shoves nature asside on the assumption that the laws of nature that govern things like chemistry are insufficient to transition non-living matter into the first living thing, then we are completely lost and know nothing -- we may as well be living in the matrix. What we "know" is tied directly to how dependable those laws of nature are. If we invite a undetectable law-breaker into the universe who can act at any time for any reason, then nothing can truly be known.

    Cheers,

    -Randy

  • Watkins
    Watkins

    The thing I've never understood in these believer vs. non-believer 'discussions' is this: most non-believers were once believers and you had the attitude that you were 'right'. You pushed your 'right' beliefs on others. Now that you're non-believers, you have the attitude that you're even more 'right' and you're pushing your new 'right' beliefs. Why do you insist on on being so over-bearing, why not just leave believers to their belief?

    So, you were wrong when you thought you were right... and now you think you're really right - but maybe you're wrong again... I mean, really, why would anyone listen to your arguments when you admit you now think you were wrong when you then thought you were right? Did you grow brain cells and amp-up your IQ for real now that you've ditched and trashed God?

    Coming from the same wt boat as you all... when I found out how wrong I'd been in believing anything wt, it humbled me, but I didn't blame God. The wt god is not the real God.

    There is an arrogance in atheism that I can't accept - when I hear it I turn the other way. It's the same arrogance I hear in preachers of many shades, and I turn away.

    I asked about the Bible because it seems to creep into some of your counter-arguments, as if atheism is the answer to Bible inconsistencies/fundamentalism. Written thousands of years ago, it's not a science book, nor should we expect it to be. But I find that God and science are compatible, if you keep the Bible(or what people say the Bible says) out of it.

    I, too, know God is real. I didn't get it from reading books about him or listening to others preach their private gospel. There's no way I could ever not believe in my own experience.

    Funny(not) that a poster who's been here for 3 whole months calls a regular poster like Tammy who's been here 3 YEARS, a troll. That's the attitude I'm talking about.

    w

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