How I recently handled JWs at my door (page 23)

J. Hofer

the creator of the universe obviously isn't able to provide accurate information to humans in a fast and straightforward manner. otherwise there would be no religious debate.

Or perhaps an even better explanation as to why the creator fo the universe is not able to do that, along with all the other things he should be doing is the simple fact that this imaginary man in the sky is just that....imaginary.

Antioch

Rev,

The means are measured by the outcome. If it doesn't produce, it must not to be working. Do we see a coherent and unified understanding of the Abrahamic God's message to humans? The Muslims, Jews and Christians all pretty much went seperate ways. Or let's reduce it just to Jews and Christians. Do they agree on what the Hebrew scriptures say and mean? No that's a complete mess. No wait, let's reduce it to the Christians. Are Christians all of the the same mind? No? Ok let's just bring it down to the not-Catholics who came hundreds of years afterward. Surely God is so clear that they are unified due to God's clear information sharing. No again? Wow. There are huge gaps between different schools of thought all streaming from the same Abrahamic God. That God is really terrible at providing accurate clear information at critical intervals isn't He? No one can agree on what the hell He has said or what the words mean. But hey, if they don't agree, we can just explain it by calling those people evil and not God's people right? That absolves God's failed communication plan doesn't it. Right (sarcasm).

Furthermore. They probably did not say "new light" because they didn't speak English. That's a semantical argument you're putting forth. The question is whether the concept was present. Yes it was. Let's just look at the scriptures and reason on it:

1. And after journeying through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where there was a synagogue of the Jews. 2. And as was the custom with Paul, he went in to them and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures, 3. Expounding and demonstrating that it was necessary for Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead, and testifying, "This Jesus, Whom I am proclaiming to you, is the Christ." 4. Now some of them were convinced, and joined themselves to Paul and Silas, including a great multitude of devout Greeks, and of the chief women not a few. (Acts 14:1, 17:1-4) (dunno translation, I ripped it off the internet).

If it walks like a duck. Quacks like a duck. Then it's a duck. That above there is new understanding. He completely changed the game and then called anyone who did not believe in the changed game a person who was wrong, No longer part of God's people. YET if they were born before Jesus, say I dunno, 15AD, and were doing their Jew thing in Thessalonica, they WERE of God people, doing the things the Jews did. But now, in say (I don't know, just gotta guess) somewhere between 45CE and 55CE, they are not. Why? Because the game changed on them and they did not change with it. According to Paul of course.

That's crazy isn't it. They are a man of Gods people for years then all of a sudden ... they aren't. Just sitting there doing the same thing. Why not? Because they did not do what? Accept a totally HUGE new understanding of the Hebrew scriptures. That makes JW changes seem almost cosmetic.

Antioch

Btw, by "before Jesus" I meant before the events surrounding the Jesus Christ concept. Obviously Jesus himself is alleged to have been born around 1CE +/- a few years.

Christian guy

Ann,

I did not say that Knight and Butler used the words "about 400 years" in regards to how often on average total solar eclipses can be seen from any spot on Earth. But many other written works do. For instance, The Sun: Our Star, by Robert Noyes, Harvard University Press, in my library, uses those words in this regard. Or you could just have clicked on the link I originally provided on this in my original post on this topic: http://www.naturalhistorymag.com/htmlsite/1008/1008_feature.html

Or try this one: http://www.rmg.co.uk/explore/astronomy-and-time/astronomy-facts/faqs/when-will-the-next-solar-or-lunar-eclipse-take-place

So I am confident that "about 400 years" is a fairly accurate statement. But providing you with an absolute "exact" indisputable figure on this may not be possible.

Here is an article which says "375 years." http://www.naturalhistorymag.com/htmlsite/1008/1008_feature.html

Knight and Butler are not by any means eclipse experts. Their "360" number may be from an old study.

The most thorough discussion of this matter I have found is one in the book. Eclipse, by Duncun Steel, with a forward by the cosmologist Paul Davies. Steel"s estimate is "410 years" http://www.scribd.com/doc/88615592/Eclipse-Duncan-Steel I have seen this same number referenced in Totality - Eclipses of the Sun, by Littman and Wilcox, and in Sky and Telescope magazine.

cofty

So nothing that says 400 then?

redvip2000

@Antioch.

I still don't see the parallel here. The Jews were expecting a Messiah - yes, and Paul said "Hey, this guy Jesus is Him". Is this some sort of change? Yes - So what? This is completely different of the concept of "new light."

I could see your point if Paul had said something like " Folks, last year i told you that Bob was the Messiah. Well, he's wasn't, but guess what? We now understand that Jesus is the Messiah!! You see, God sent us some new information... cause as you know that's how God works!!"

My point is that the concept of "new light" as advanced by the Watchtower society ( God can only reveals truth a drop at a time over many years while allowing His people to be in error ) makes no sense, especially within the scope of the supposed "can do anything" abilities that God has.

You would not think it's reasonable for a CEO of a company to take years to cascade important information down through his organization. What i'm saying is that it would be unreasonable to think God can't do the same.

J. Hofer

hm, so how about the whole circumcision thing, eating pork etc.

Antioch

Rev,

Really? So show me where those Messiah expecting Jews expected him to die. You are honestly telling me the Jews expected a Messiah that looked or acted or did anything like what Jesus did? If so, why did the VAST majority of Jews reject him? If the entire principle of Christology as we understand it is about his ransom and blood, then show me how the Jews of his day already expected that and needed no new understanding on the Messianic plan for salvation.

Trust me, there are plenty of other ways to condemn and negate JWs. You don't have to hold onto this so strongly. It just isn't an ill specific to JWs unless you completely ignore historical Judeo-Christianity.

Antioch

God can only reveals truth a drop at a time over many years while allowing His people to be in error

Call to mind your knowledge of Jesus' experiences with his apostles. How many times did he allegedly try to explain that the way they thought it was gonna go, it was not gonna go. Peter for Christ's Sake didn't get it even AFTER Jesus had already died and needed him to give him a talking to. What was with "Doubting Thomas"?

What more proof do you have to have that the Jews of his time had completely errant views of Christology as we know it. The fundamental concepts of Christianity were totally new. God had to give them a new understanding to help them understand the significance of his death. That was NEW. That was alleged spiritual understanding. It is the conceptual equivalent of "new light." You hate the term, but it's a modern English term explaining a concept that is there is history.

Question: Do you believe in the Trinity? (no I don't want to argue it's merits. I think you can see where I would go with that.)

How I recently handled JWs at my door

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