Billy- very good point. First time I have thought of it like that since learning TTATT. Mmmmm that will take some meditation. A simple point too. Thanks Billy-Kate xx
I Am No Longer an Atheist
by OnTheWayOut 171 Replies latest members adult
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Billy the Ex-Bethelite
Kate, Don't spend too much time and energy meditating, because...
JW: "You refuse to believe in God because you don't want the responsibility that would go along with it. You've become an atheist so that you can spend all your time pursuing fun, money, and sex!"
Me: "Well, I guess I'd better get busy then!"
Once I opened my mind to TTATT, I could see the flaws in JW reasoning on, well, almost everything. Now I have to admit that I have many more questions than answers when it comes to the big picture "Where did we come from? What's out there?" But as is often said here, "I'd rather have questions I can't answer, than have answers I can't question."
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OnTheWayOut
Thanks Billy. It seems that the minds that want to ponder (thought there are many minds that do not ponder) must come to the two possibilites:
1. Something somehow came from nothing.
2. Something has always existed.
Even matter/energy from another universe suggests that matter/energy always existed or came from nothing in another universe.
It is my hope that when the majority of mankind puts behind superstitions and long held beliefs of faith, that he will figure that out. -
Watkins
Interesting... at first glance the word "anti-theist" sounds like one is against theists. How about "anti-theism-ist" if there's need for a box?
Where's my sign? - I'm an "anti-putting-everything-and-everyone-into-a-box-ist"! Seriously, do we need to continue the wt legacy of condemning everyone who doesn't think like us? After the wt I ditched that exclusivist mindset, us-against-them; I'm right, so you've gotta be wrong. The pomposity and arrogance of that attitude has nothing to do with British accents, lol.
I've always thought that the opposite of love was not hate, but apathy - I think zed brought that up. Because if we're still saddling people with titles to make it more convenient to hate the collective box we've lumped them into.... we haven't relinquished the need for religion in our lives, but just changed who we hate. I previously believed atheists were above it, or at least beyond religion, but that doesn't seem to be so in all cases.
I don't have a list... I just call y'all "cyber-friends". I really do! Yeah, I know... now that's irrational and illogical thinking.
W
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tec
If Christ has shown us the love and the power of God, if Christ shows us what His kingship is like, then God and Christ have shown us that they very much so could easily have spared the children of the tsunami and the earthquake.
All they had to do was cause the events to not happen.
So of all of your reasons as listed in the OP, the one that really bothers you is this one:
I think it would be awful to worship the God who allows innocent children to suffer in disasters like tsunamis or with birth defects.
I am going to suggest to you that this does come from a lack of knowing Christ... and God, and not just them but also the ways of this world.
For example,
Did Christ stop the Roman army from invading Jerusalem... or did He warn the people about getting out of her before that happened?
If people were listening to HIM, do you think that He would not have warned them to get out before something comes to harm them?
What of the men who build cities in high risk areas (and produce pollutants or unsafe supplies of power in or near those cities that cause birth defects)?
This universe is a shifting, moving, living universe. So there are going to be such things as earthquakes, tsunamis, tornados, etc. (and man himself chooses for himself and his children to build cities and even live in these areas) That is part of this world (Christ SAID such things would happen... he did not say that such things would NOT happen), and this world is NOT His Kingdom. His Kingdom is not part of this world, and He has not yet returned to establish it. The same with disease and death, and many birth defects are a result of things that man has put into his body or into the air or again, from where he lives (which is not always the fault of the man living there... he might have been sent to work in a place that other men have built, but who have built carelessly). Part of this world, part of having this flesh.
So maybe consider placing blame on those who create the situations requiring a man place himself and his children at risk. Such things will not stop until the men who perpetuate them stop. (or are stopped, or... as is the case with the Kingdom of God... are not permitted to bring such harm and lack of love for fellow man INTO the kingdom)
Peace to you,
tammy
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adamah
Billy said-
JW: "You refuse to believe in God because you don't want the responsibility that would go along with it. You've become an atheist so that you can spend all your time pursuing fun, money, and sex!"
Funny how dogmatic thinkers like the JWs lead with conclusion which they fail to support, KNOWING the motives of others based on nothing.
One could just as easily say to that JW:
"You believe in God because you don't want to ACCEPT the PERSONAL responsibility that would go along with it. You've become a JW so that you have to spend all your time pursuing busy-work rather than doing something with your life!"
However, lacking supportive evidence, it's still only an unsupported conclusion which speaks to another's motives for doing things, so kinda pointless (unless said as food for thought).
Adam
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OnTheWayOut
I won't keep going, Tammy. I will just repeat what I said previously on this matter.
OTWO: You already "...know that [I am] wrong in [my] opinions of God." You already say that I am "...looking at what is false..."
So a "YES" will provoke you to say I am wrong....
And yes, the INNOCENT CHILDREN thing bothers me the most.
We can blame men. We can say they chose to turn away from God. MEN, not the children here who want to please their parents just like 6 year olds that give talks at the Kingdom Hall and get baptized so young, MEN.
And I am not even going to go to lesser disasters and wars and the like, although the point is just as valid. I am not talking about the death that Christianity teaches is caused by "sin." But tens of thousands of children killed, suffering. Even instant death puts their parents through such unnecessary anguish. If that is what God allows, then blames men, why worship him? Why turn to him? Screw him. And screw you for "suggesting" that I have a lack of knowing Christ, God, the ways of the world. Fucking judgemental Christians and believers! Automatically deciding such stuff when someone uses their own brain to arrive someplace other than Faith-town.
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OnTheWayOut
Adamah, that's my mother-
One could just as easily say to that JW:
"You believe in God because you don't want to ACCEPT the PERSONAL responsibility that would go along with it. You've become a JW so that you have to spend all your time pursuing busy-work rather than doing something with your life!"
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losingit
I don't understand why many insist that God's nature must be revealed or be logical . I am okay with God being a mystery, that he has and always will exist.
How long have humans been around? And yet we assume that our small minds can explain God's essence?
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tec
We can blame men. We can say they chose to turn away from God. MEN, not the children here who want to please their parents just like 6 year olds that give talks at the Kingdom Hall and get baptized so young, MEN.
Yes, exaclty. The wts is a great example. MEN (parents)... and the MEN (leaders of that lie)... mislead and harm their own children. (the actual children - 6 year olds and the like; as well as those who are also adults who are in them)
And I am not even going to go to lesser disasters and wars and the like, although the point is just as valid.
That is correct. It IS just as valid.
This world is NOT the kingdom of God. This world does not follow God. Some in this world DO... but their kingdom is from another place; just as Christ SAID.
I am not talking about the death that Christianity teaches is caused by "sin." But tens of thousands of children killed, suffering. Even instant death puts their parents through such unnecessary anguish.
Yes, yes, it does. Often by the decisions of men. Sometimes because of the 'sin and death' in the flesh, that we all have. But God, through Christ, GIVES life. So that it is not death that rules, but Life. That Kingdom, is not this world, though.
If that is what God allows, then blames men, why worship him?
Why would you not blame those who are responsible for causing suffering? God, through Christ, gives life... asks that we love one another, give our lives for one another, give to those who ask and who need, forgive and show mercy, unshackle all chains/yokes (that would include slavery), etc.
Man says... take; make your money or gain your power off the backs of those less fortunate, man lords himself over his fellow man; killing, looking the other way as children are harmed. Not ALL men. Those men who lack love, who belong to their father, who is not God.
You are blaiming the wrong person.
Why turn to him? Screw him. And screw you for "suggesting" that I have a lack of knowing Christ, God, the ways of the world.
Would you rather I say it than suggest it?
Fucking judgemental Christians and believers! Automatically deciding such stuff when someone uses their own brain to arrive someplace other than Faith-town.
Really? Are you not saying in your post that 'christians and believers' do not know God? Do not know the way of the world?
Someone says it back to you and you go off on them? I listen to that sort of thing from some atheist on here all the time. I am challenged and questioned and called delusional, a liar, naive, ignorant, crazy, etc, etc... all the time. I suggest to you that you do not know Christ and God (who you of course claim NOT to know, because you claim they do not exist), and the world... and you respond as above?
You put this in the heated debate section, even warning people that there would be some heat... and then when someone suggests that you do not know all that you think you know... you respond as above?
Right.
Peace, and I hope you can have some truly,
tammy