FORGIVENESS ... You owe it to your health

by ABibleStudent 75 Replies latest social physical

  • myelaine
    myelaine

    dear Band...

    the fact that the WTBTS is made up of family and friends ensures that the means of "abolition" is altered. The dynamics are completely different than other historical movements. If the WTBTS leaders are taking on and perpetuating a greater siege mentality then sustained anger and hateful words toward them will lead to even more isolationist behaviour. It wont ever encourage dialogue (which would be the most obvious path to change). Compassion, love and belief in something better is a powerful means of change, in yourself and for others. Jesus practiced this truth the bible never portrays Him as expecting His anger to change people...likewise, the Father ceased using angry words to bring change in peoples hearts (that is where change begins to happen, not the mind) and sent His beloved Son.

    love michelle

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    No, I've studied political movements since high school. Anger has its uses. I am angry. Not once I have thrown acid on a Witness, planted a bomb at Bethel, or use a shotgun against Witnesses at my door. I will not be a passive boob. Passive boobs are my favorite flavor of ice cream. We don't agree. Too bad. I believe in anger.

    Forgiveness has a whole bunch of negative meanings from our culture. Some things can never be forgiven.

  • Magnum
    Magnum

    myelaine -

    That was a load of kumbaya to me.

    the fact that the WTBTS is made up of family and friends ensures that the means of "abolition" is altered. The dynamics are completely different than other historical movements.

    Like, what??? In what way is the WTBTS made up of family and friends? Even if it is, a lot of historical oppressive groups were made up of people connected in some way. That's irrelevant. I don't see that the dynamics are different.

    If the WTBTS leaders are taking on and perpetuating a greater siege mentality then sustained anger and hateful words toward them will lead to even more isolationist behaviour. It wont ever encourage dialogue (which would be the most obvious path to change).

    If they want to resort to more isolationist behavior, that's their problem. That's not going to keep me from exercising my sense of justice and exposing them. Do you honestly think that the org is ever going to be open to dialogue? It's moving further away from that. I really think you're naive if you think the org is going "change" because of open dialogue.

    Compassion, love and belief in something better is a powerful means of change, in yourself and for others. Jesus practiced this truth the bible never portrays Him as expecting His anger to change people

    I personally don't expect to "change" the org. The purpose is not always to change. When (according to the Bible) God destroys people at Armageddon, it won't be to change them; it'll be to get rid of them. So, again, the purpose is not always to change an entity, but sometimes to remove it or expose it so it can't do anymore harm. Would compassion, love, etc. have changed Hitler and his cronies? No, it took anger to remove him and his followers and his system. I think it's controlled, constructive anger that moves many to work towards exposing the org. What if Paul Grundy hadn't had some form of anger? Would he have created jwfacts.com? That site has been very helpful to many. Everybody's having a passive, peace and love mentality would allow the bullies of the world free reign.

    And, by the way, the god of the Bible is known for his anger, his being a "manly person of war".

  • lisaBObeesa
    lisaBObeesa

    http://www.salsa.net/peace/conv/8weekconv4-2.html

    Loving Your Enemies.

    by Martin Luther King, Jr.

    The following sermon was delivered at the Dexter Avenue Baptist Church in Montgomery, Alabama, at Christmas, 1957. Martin Luther King wrote it whi1e in jail far committing nonviolent civil disobedience during the Montgomery bus boycott. Let us be practical and ask the question. How do we love our enemies?

    First, we must develop and maintain the capacity to forgive. He who is devoid of the power to forgive is devoid of the power to love. It is impossible even to begin the act of loving one's enemies without the prior acceptance of the necessity, over and over again, of forgiving those who inflict evil and injury upon us. It is also necessary to realize that the forgiving act must always be initiated by the person who has been wronged, the victim of some great hurt, the recipient of some tortuous injustice, the absorber of some terrible act of oppression. The wrongdoer may request forgiveness. He may come to himself, and, like the prodigal son, move up some dusty road, his heart palpitating with the desire for forgiveness. But only the injured neighbor, the loving father back home, can really pour out the warm waters of forgiveness.

    Forgiveness does not mean ignoring what has been done or putting a false label on an evil act. It means, rather, that the evil act no longer remains as a barrier to the relationship. Forgiveness is a catalyst creating the atmosphere necessary for a fresh start and a new beginning. It is the lifting of a burden or the canceling of a debt. The words "I will forgive you, but I'll never forget what you've done" never explain the real nature of forgiveness. Certainly one can never forget, if that means erasing it totally from his mind. But when we forgive, we forget in the sense that the evil deed is no longer a mental block impeding a new relationship. Likewise, we can never say, "I will forgive you, but I won't have anything further to do with you." Forgiveness means reconciliation, a coming together again.

    Without this, no man can love his enemies. The degree to which we are able to forgive determines the degree to which we are able to love our enemies.

    Second, we must recognize that the evil deed of the enemy-neighbor, the thing that hurts, never quite expresses all that he is. An element of goodness may be found even in our worst enemy. Each of us has something of a schizophrenic personality, tragically divided against ourselves. A persistent civil war rages within all of our lives. Something within us causes us to lament with Ovid, the Latin poet, "I see and approve the better things, but follow worse," or to agree with Plato that human personality is like a charioteer having two headstrong horses, each wanting to go in a different direction, or to repeat with the Apostle Paul, "The good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do."

    This simply means that there is some good in the worst of us and some evil in the best of us. When we discover this, we are less prone to hate our enemies. When we look beneath the surface, beneath. the impulsive evil deed, we see within our enemy-neighbor a measure of goodness and know that the viciousness and evilness of his acts are not quite representative of all that he is. We see him in a new light. We recognize that his hate grows out of fear, pride, ignorance, prejudice, and misunderstanding, but in spite of this, we know God's image is ineffably etched in being. Then we love our enemies by realizing that they are not totally bad and that they are not beyond the reach of God's redemptive love.

    Third, we must not seek to defeat or humiliate the enemy but to win his friendship and understanding. At times we are able to humiliate our worst enemy. Inevitably, his weak moments come and we are able to thrust in his side the spear of defeat. But this we must not do. Every word and deed must contribute to an understanding with the enemy and release those vast reservoirs of goodwill which have been blocked by impenetrable walls of hate.

    Let us move now from the practical how to the theoretical why: Why should we love our enemies? The first reason is fairly obvious. Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Hate multiplies hate, violence multiplies violence, and toughness multi# plies toughness in a descending spiral of destruction.

    So when Jesus says "Love your enemies," he is setting forth a profound and ultimately inescapable admonition. Have we not come to such an impasse in the modern world that we must love our enemies-or else? The chain reaction of evil-hate begetting hate, wars producing more wars-must be broken, or we shall be plunged into the dark abyss of annihilation.

    Another reason why we must love our enemies is that hate scars the soul and distorts the personality. Mindful that hate is an evil and dangerous force, we too often think of what it does to the person hated. This is understandable, for hate brings irreparable damage to its victims. We have seen its ugly consequences in the ignominious deaths brought to six million Jews by hate-obsessed madman named Hitler, in the unspeakable violence inflicted upon Negroes by bloodthirsty mobs, in the dark horrors of war, and in the terrible indignities and injustices perpetrated against millions of God's children by unconscionable oppressors.

    But there is another side which we must never overlook. Hate is just as injurious to the person who hates. Like an unchecked cancer, hate corrodes the personality and eats away its vital unity. Hate destroys a man's sense of values and his objectivity. It causes him to describe the beautiful as ugly and the ugly as beautiful, and to confuse the true with the false and the false with the true.

    A third reason why we should love our enemies is that love is the only force capable of transforming an enemy into a friend. We never get rid of an enemy by meeting hate with hate; we get rid of an enemy by getting rid of enmity. By its very nature, hate destroys and tears down; by its very nature, love creates and builds up. Love transforms with redemptive power.

    The relevance of what I have said to the crisis in race relations should be readily apparent. There will be no permanent solution to the, race problem until oppressed men develop the capacity to love their enemies. The darkness of racial injustice will be dispelled only by the light of forgiving love. For more than three centuries American Negroes have been battered by the iron rod of oppression, frustrated by day and bewildered by night by unbearable injustice and burdened with the ugly weight of discrimination. Forced to live with these shameful conditions, we are tempted to become bitter and to retaliate with a corresponding hate. But if this happens, the new order we seek will be little more than a duplicate of the old order. We must in strength and humility meet hate with love.

    My friends, we have followed the so-called practical way for too long a time now, and it has led inexorably to deeper confusion and chaos. Time is cluttered with the wreckage of communities which surrendered to hatred and violence. For the salvation of our nation and the salvation of mankind, we must follow another way.

    While abhorring segregation, we shall love the segregationist. This is the only way to create the beloved community.

    To our most bitter opponents we say: "We shall match your capacity to inflict suffering by our capacity to endure suffering. We shall meet your physical force with soul force. Do to us what you will, and we shall continue to love you. We cannot in all good conscience obey your unjust laws because noncooperation with evil is as much a moral obligation as is cooperation with good. Throw us in jail and we shall still love you. Bomb our homes and threaten our children, and we shall still love you. Send your hooded perpetrators of violence into our community at the midnight hour and beat us and leave us half dead, and we shall still love you. But be ye assured that we will wear you down by our capacity to suffer. One day we shall win freedom but not only for ourselves. We shall so appeal to your heart and conscience that we shall win you in the process and our victory will be a double victory."

  • ABibleStudent
    ABibleStudent

    Thank you for everyone who has read this thread and especially to those who have written about their positive experiences after overcoming negative emotions (i.e., fear, anger, hate). Based on what I have read in this thread and my personal experiences, the sooner that a person can let go of their anger the sooner that the grieving/healing/living phases can start.

    Although anger is a powerful emotion that has produced positive results historically and for individuals, I do feel that anger is an unstable emotion with the potential to influence people unpredictably. I would compare anger to nitroglycerin and love to C4. Both are powerful explosives capable of being used for good, but nitroglycerin is more unstable. I believe that great people such as Mahatma Gandhi and Martin Luther King would caution people when using anger to promote positive social change.

    I look forward to reading more personal experiences by JWN members. Hopefully, this thread will provide comfort and viable options to those healing from the WTBTS's BITE control.

    For those who are having difficult overcoming their anger, have you thought about reading inspirational stories of volunteers to inspire oneself to get involved in something that one is passionate about. Volunteering is a great way to meet non-JWs with similiar interests and values and to overcome many of the WTBTS's phobias about non-JWs and "this System".

    Here is an inspiring story about a man who has lived through tumultuous times. He helps at risk children learn how to fly. He is creating a positive verse in the life of someone that will hopefully last a life-time.

    Flying with history - Tuskegee Airman mentors a young pilot
    BY PHIL SCOTT

    pg 30, AOPA PILOT, November 2013

    IF 15-YEAR-OLD KIMBERLY ANYADIKE had run into any trouble flying the Cessna 172from Los Angeles to Newport News, Virginia, and back - the youngest African-American pilot to make the trip - she carried along the perfect instructor pilot in the seat behind her. That would be veteran Air Force pilot Levi Thornhill, with about 3,000 hours in his logbook, plus innumerable hours prior to that as an Air Force mechanic. Anyadike got her training at Tomorrow's Aeronautical Museum (TAM), an organization at South L.A.'s Compton-Woodley Airport that teaches local, at-risk kids how to fly.

    On the other hand, Thornhill, 91, learned all of his courtesy of the U.S.military several decades ago. "I'd gone out [to TAM] because I'm interested in flying, and whatever," he says. "This girl was training there as one of the young pilots, and so Petgrave [Robin Petgrave, founder and chief pilot of Celebrity Helicopters, who started and runs TAM] came up with the idea to make this cross-country to promote her and the program." Petgrave supplied a Cessna 172and Thornhill went along in back, while another instructor pilot flew in the right seat. "She had the job of flying and navigating the airplane," he says, "and we talked a lot before and after each leg."

    Thornhill's advice is worth paying full attention to. He joined the Army Air Forces in 1942 and was shipped to Tuskegee, Alabama, for basic training; to Nebraska for aircraft mechanics school; and then to Italy as a P-47 crew chief for the 337th Fighter Group-aka the Red Tails, aka the Tuskegee Airmen. After the war, Thornhill stayed in the service, getting his private certificate in light taildraggers courtesy of the GI Bill. The Air Force accepted
    him for pilot training, and after graduating as a second lieutenant at Nellis Air Force Base in 1950, he received deployment orders for Munich-where he flew P-47s. He transitioned to jet fighters: F-86s, F-84s-all told about seven or eight different types-ending his career in T-33s and retiring as a major.

    Of flying with Anyadike cross-country, he says, "It was quite a thrill. That young lady was unbelievable. I know she'll go far in anything she decides to do. It was just a real, real joy for me, being around somebody like that." Anyadike's now in college studying medicine, while former Tuskegee Airman Thornhill keeps working with the South L.A. kids, talking about flying, and whatever.

    Peace be with you and everyone, who you love,

    Robert

  • Magnum
    Magnum

    lisaBObeesa -

    Did you read all that you just pasted? So you quote Martin Luther King, Jr. as if that's supposed to shut me up? Is that your appeal to authority (logical fallacy)? Problem is, I don't consider MLK to be an authority.

    First, we must develop and maintain the capacity to forgive.

    Why, MLK, because you say so? Who the hell are you to tell me I must develop and maintain the capacity to forgive? Are you smarter than I am? I doubt it. Do you have more insight than I do? I doubt it.

    Forgiveness does not mean ignoring what has been done or putting a false label on an evil act. It means, rather, that the evil act no longer remains as a barrier to the relationship. Forgiveness is a catalyst creating the atmosphere necessary for a fresh start and a new beginning.

    lisaBObeesa - do you really think the "barrier to the relationship" between JWs and those who doubt/question/challenge them will ever break down? Do you really think that our forgiving the org/JWs will be a "catalyst creating the atmosphere necessary for a fresh start and a new beginning". What a load of kumbaya BS! The only way you will ever get a fresh start and new beginning with JWs would be to kiss their asses, bow to their super Jedi Knight GB, and hang your head in shame and admit how stupid you've been not to have seen all their wonderful light. You would start off "fresh" all right - right at the bottom. If you're a brother, you might get to carry a microphone after a year or so.

    Third, we must not seek to defeat or humiliate the enemy but to win his friendship and understanding.

    OK, again, I don't answer to MLK; he's not my authority. He doesn't tell me what to do just as JWs don't. But just to analyze what he said... "we must not seek to defeat the enemy" - what??? Why not?

    De 7:2 "And Jehovah your God will certainly abandon them to you, and you must defeat them"

    Jg 20:35 And Jehovah proceeded to defeat Benjamin before Israel

    LisaB - Do you really think you're going to win the friendship and understanding of the org by forgiving it? You only win its friendship if you serve it and slave for it and sacrifice for it and worship it.

    There are a lot of other things I could say about that MLK quote, but don't have time for it.

  • Magnum
    Magnum

    ABibleStudent - I swear I'm not trying to be mean. I really am a nice, forgiving person, but you sound a little too goody-goody, passive, peace-and-love for me.

    For those who are having difficult overcoming their anger, have you thought about reading inspirational stories of volunteers to inspire oneself to get involved in something that one is passionate about. Volunteering is a great way to meet non-JWs with similiar interests and values and to overcome many of the WTBTS's phobias about non-JWs and "this System".

    That's kind of presumptuous and kind of condescending - like you're on a higher plane than some of us. You presume that some of us need to read "inspirational stories of volunteers". That infuriates me. I bet I've spent countless more hours and countless more dollars volunteering than you have. And I don't need to meet anybody. I have a wonderful, rich life. I'm interested in many things. I love to learn. I love to travel. That's one of the reasons I'm angry. JWs robbed me of any ability to ever really engage in any of those things I love. I'll never be able to travel because of my financial and work situation - thanks to JWs. JWs told me in black-and-white, in no uncertain terms, that I would be in paradise in now. I'm not. They were black-and-white wrong. And, according to you and some others, I'm supposed to walk off in the sunset singing "kumbaya". Over my dead body. I'm not ready to forgive pompous, smug JWs. HOWEVER, if they repent, if they change, if they come to their senses, I will welcome them with open arms. I will forgive when doing so is justified.

    If you want to play peace-and-love and sing kumbaya, feel free to. I don't care. That's your right. But quit acting like JWs and preaching your pop psychology to some of us.

  • ABibleStudent
    ABibleStudent

    Magnum - ABibleStudent - I swear I'm not trying to be mean. I really am a nice, forgiving person, but you sound a little too goody-goody, passive, peace-and-love for me.

    Hi Magnum, If you took the time to get to know me by reading some of the following threads that I started, you might change your opinion of me as "a little too goody-goody, passive, peace-and-love for me":

    1. (Belated) Hello
    2. Need Advice About Letter to the IRS to Revoke the WTBTS' Tax Exempt Status
    3. URGENT: Please Sign White House Petition to "Protect Americans from Dangerous Cults: Modify USC Title 26 ยง 501 Tax Exemption Requirements"
    4. It's Back! . . . Round 2.

    Don't assume that respect and compassion equals weakness and passive.

    The major differences between you and me, is that I chose to control my actions, to listen to others before reacting, and to search for "Win-Win" scenerios. Negative emotions like anger, fear, and distrust can make nice people do mean things, why do you think that cult personas of JWs can do the things that "Spiritually Strong" (non-thinking) JWs do?

    Peace be with you and everyone, who you love,

    Robert

  • Magnum
    Magnum

    OK - I might check those posts out later, but I believe you.

    Don't assume that respect and compassion equals weakness and passive.

    That's a straw-man argument. You've introduced a different subject and are attacking it. That point you just introduced has nothing to do with what we're talking about in this thread; we're talking about forgiveness - forgiveness for an entity (the org or individual JWs) who has not repented - is still attacking. This thread is not about respect and compassion. But, just to address that, I am deeply respectful and deeply compassionate. I assure you that I don't think respect and compassion equal weakness and passivity. But again, that's not the point of this thread.

    The major differences between you and me, is that I chose to control my actions, to listen to others before reacting, and to search for "Win-Win" scenerios.

    Another straw-man argument; that's not what we're talking about. But just to address it anyway... So a major difference between me and you is that you choose to control your actions? What does that have to do with this thread? How possibly could you know to what degree I do or don't control my actions? We're talking about forgiveness in this thread. So you listen to others before you react and you're different from me in that? How do you know whether I listen to others before I react? I've been listening to JWs at least 40 years? Is that not long enough? So you search for "Win-Win" scenarios and you're different from me in so doing? How do you know? What "Win-Win" scenarios have I not searched for? Tell me, please.

    Negative emotions like anger, fear, and distrust can make nice people do mean things

    Emotions like anger, fear, and distrust can make smart people do good things. I don't think such emotions are "negative". That's just some label you attach to try to make a point. Emotions like those are healthy and absolutely necessary. If you have children, you should instill a proper sense of fear in them and a proper sense of distrust. Even anger is proper at times. If I see somebody torturing or mistreating or animal, do you want me to not get angry?

    Look, we just disagree. You started this thread kind of preaching pop-psychology forgiveness. I disagree with you and whoever psychologists you might have quoted. Psychology is not an exact science. I'm not going to forgive the org or individual JWs because they're far from changing or repenting; they're getting worse. The org steals lives. Individual JWs are smug. They're pestering me. They think they're better than me. They want to "encourage" me, but I can't have an open discussion with them. Any session with them can only end good if I state how wrong and sorry I am and how wonderful the org is. I'm not doing that. Why would I want to forgive that smugness, that air of superiority? They can kiss my ass. Sorry if that bothers you. But, remember, you're the one who started preaching forgiveness. This ain't JW land; we can disagree here with what comes from the "platform" and we don't all have to shake our heads in mindless, drone agreement.

    I really do wish you the best and am not mad at you. I just have stong feelings in this area. You and I probably agree on some other subjects - just not this one. Why don't we just leave it at that?

  • ABibleStudent
    ABibleStudent

    Magnum - I really do wish you the best and am not mad at you. I just have stong feelings in this area. You and I probably agree on some other subjects - just not this one. Why don't we just leave it at that?

    Hi Magnum, You have strongly held opinions and emotions. Instead of debating your opinions versus my opinions point-by-point, I will agree with you to disagree with you about how important forgiveness is in helping someone heal. I wish you the best in healing from your WTBTS's experiences and enjoying a fun and fullfilling life.

    Peace be with you and everyone, who you love,

    Robert

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