X-JWs Who are now bible Christians

by clash_city_rockers 169 Replies latest jw friends

LittleToe

Nice quote, cello
cellomould

Thanks LittleToe
(Although it's really more of a paraphrase)
cellomould
"My toes taste really good" J.R. Brown
Adonai438

Yikes! You Guys have been busy!!!!!!!
I haven't gotten email updates on this so I had no idea
Now, I haven't read all Clashes comments but from what I have read, he is an honest, true Christian and I have no problem calling him(I assume ) my brother in Christ.
I don't exactly 'group' myself with him, as you put it, as I belong to Christ but we are both members of Christs church.
I have not been silent on purpose but I do wish to support him.
While his comments may have seemed blunt and rubbed some the wrong way, He was speaking the truth. God's word.
If one is offended at God's word then, I am sorry but, thats their problem & they're in my prayers.
While in depth knowledge of all the truths in the Bible is not required for salvation, a basic belief in the truth & gospel is. The trinity is not some huge, mysterious, vague doctrine that takes years to even find in the Bible. It's there, loud and clear and is the very essence of God. A rejection of this doctrine is a problem salvation wise. Without making a case for the trinity here let me just say a general priciple that should make sense here:
Assuming the trinity to be true:
To not follow the true God-- as described in scripture as Father, Son, & Holy Spirit-- is a rejection of the true God. You can't accept part and reject part and still have the truth.
Differing on small issues like what kind of music to use in worship is not the same thing as differing on WHO GOD IS.
Clash and other Christian here, nice to meet you all and I love hearing your stories of Grace! Our God is an Awesome God, Amen !
And UnclePenn ---- 22 isn't that young!!!!!! I'll try to keep up with this, promise ;)
To those who aren't christians, try not to take offense to a simple sharing of ideas, stories and truth. If you want to talk about actuall questions or ideas we do care and want to talk with everyone, not just those that agree with us . We are just trying to meet the others on here that are also christians now as others have done before for various other belief systems.
God bless y'all tonight & alway,
Grace & Peace in Jesus,
<>< Angie
clash_city_rockers

Little Toe said:
but I think that Plm may have hit the nail on the head when she called you on your reliance on men.
I think you really don’t understand the dynamics of the church. It’s not a reliance on men alone but on Christ. Christ has his means of feeding his sheep such as gifted men to teach Peter is one good example (John 21:15-17) So in one sense this passage implies that there are those who rely on Peter (a man). Take a look at this passage
Eph 4:11-15
11 And he gave some to be apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 for the perfecting of the saints, unto the work of ministering, unto the building up of the body of Christ:
13 till we all attain unto the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a full grown man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ:
14 that we may be no longer children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, in craftiness, after the wiles of error;
15 but speaking truth in love, we may grow up in all things into him, who is the head, even Christ;

If we are members of a local church in one way ore another we are rely on each other to each member prayer, encouragement, accountability, and so on. We rely on the Deacons to fulfill the ministry of love (feeding the poor helping widows, making sure everyone in the congregation is O.K. when it comes to common provisions). We depend on the elders to teach the word in expository preaching opening up the historic redemptive nature of Christ’s work and other teachers during Sunday school and mid-week bible study. We rely on those who have the gifts in teaching (Eph. 4:11,12). The very idea of ministering implies that there are those who depend or rely on those who are ministering to them. So if your charge is that I rely on men then yes, so what it is the church we rely on each other. This is the nature of the covenant community your elders will agree with me on this. Look it’s not like I am relying on man and his gifts on his own, but on men who have been gifted by Christ to minister to those who depend on that ministering. Remember the church is not Jehovah’s Witnesses. The Lord is with his church first off. And the church is not lead by these freaks that use the bible to concoct some bazaar cultic doctrines like JW’s. Also the fact that you are a member of the Free Church and participate in it’s sacraments demonstrated that you to have reliance on men. Again, reliance in men in the contexts of the church doing its God ordained business. So I don’t think you can live consistently by your objection or agreement with plum. Remember Plum lives and makes her assessment of Christ’s church and His people from the perspective of someone who is in rebellion against God. All of her presuppositions come from the perspective of unbelief. Be wise and do not be quick to run with the ideas that come from darkness think it through and be prudent. She is an antagonist of the very Jesus Christ you claim to embrace. Remember the opening of Proverbs.
Prov. 1:1-9
1 The proverbs of Solomon son of David, king of Israel:
2 for attaining wisdom and discipline;
for understanding words of insight;
3 for acquiring a disciplined and prudent life,
doing what is right and just and fair;
4 for giving prudence to the simple,
knowledge and discretion to the young-
5 let the wise listen and add to their learning,
and let the discerning get guidance-
6 for understanding proverbs and parables,
the sayings and riddles of the wise.
7 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge,
but fools [1] despise wisdom and discipline.
Exhortations to Embrace Wisdom
Warning Against Enticement
8 Listen, my son, to your father's instruction
and do not forsake your mother's teaching.
9 They will be a garland to grace your head
and a chain to adorn your neck.
And also Proverbs 14:3
In the mouth of the foolish is a rod for his back, But the lips of the wise will protect them.
Little said:
Churches can be a stepping stone to finding Christ, but upon being called the Christian may easily succumb to the advances of men, tradition, theology, etc.
It is a very slippery stone indeed, when one starts to put these ahead of our Saviour. In many respects you would be safer getting out, rather than falling upon the treadmill of pleasing men.
This is a very legitimate concern and one that has been reflected by many bible-believing Christians not just you. In fact you can find that reflection articulated in the Westminster Confession of Faith chapter XXV. I would bet you that there are some in your church that are just as passionate about your concern as you are and maybe some of them can be found in the session. Remember you are not the first guy to read the bible in the last 2000 years you have plenty of company and it is call Christ’s Church. No Little, it would not be safer to get out of the church, for the church is where Christ is proclaimed. If Christ is not proclaimed and exulted in that church then get out and find another church. Remember theology is not a vice as a new Christian Little, you should not be intimidated by it’s pursuits. For learning the Excellencies of Christ is the most noble of studies. What born again Christian would not want to know the things of God?
Acts 11:10-12
10As soon as it was night, the brothers sent Paul and Silas away to Berea. On arriving there, they went to the Jewish synagogue. 11Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true. 12Many of the Jews believed, as did also a number of prominent Greek women and many Greek men.

Little said:
My salvation didn't depend on any doctrine other than accepting Christ.
I don't think your example of having a good or bad relationship with God holds true. I think you'll find that the confession highlights that man is alienated from God (since the fall) and comes into a relationship (communion) with Him. Whether that is rich or poor will likely be a result of drawing close to Him, or otherwise
I think Angie answered perfectly on this point. Second I believed you misunderstood my use of relationships in my previous post. I absolutely believe in the reformed doctrine of the fall.
Little said:
You will not bludgeon me with the Confession, nor any word of man.
OK I will bludgeon you with the scriptures Sola Scriptura
One more thing be more discerning in regard to what books you say amen to. Cello’s book is one of apostasy and misrepresentations of Christ that would offend all bible believing Christians. If you do agree with such a book then why spend time in a church which teaches the opposite to that which is presented in that liberal heretical exposition? I can see if one would buy it to see what the other side believes and for purposes for apologetics so one can apologetically blow that thing out of the sky. But to agree with the books position is not cool. My guess is that you are just being agreeable. But we should be guarded in our agreement with unbelievers. It is not wise to give a favorable comment on a book which one has not read. I do thank you for your interaction and pray for your continual growth in Christ.
Grace and Peace,
jr
plmkrzy

Remember Plum lives and makes her assessment of Christ’s church and His people from the perspective of someone who is in rebellion against God.
HMmmmmm, Have you informed God of this? Maybe you better so that he too will be aware of it.
You are truly a funny guy. But I hate to brake this to you, as much as you will not like to hear this, I don't think God heard you so maybe you should yell it to him and DEMAND that he SUBMIT to YOU and your unexpierenced OPINION of me. Make sure that you point out to God that you know me far better then he does. I'm sure that he will be most humble and greatful for the insight you can offer him.
Plum, of the thanking God for a sense of humor class.

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LittleToe

Angie:
Nice post - I concur.
Clash:
Your last post presented your position far clearer than your previous posts. The tone was also far more reasonable.
I think we had got off to a misunderstanding (both of us).
Lets keep this thread going a bit longer and see if we can't come to understanding of where we all truly stand.
If I may be so bold, I would suggest that you try not to be so dogmatic as to your assessment of where each poster stands. The truth is that few of us really know each other. Assumptions lead to error and upset.
I should swiftly add that I have little to disagree with in your last post, however I'll try to contribute more later (I'm at work again ).
Incidentally, my compliment was of cello's quote of J.R.Brown, not his book offering. I think he took it that way, too.
clash_city_rockers

I would like to thank all of you for contributing to this thread. It has been very helpful for me in getting some of you a little better. I am also helpful in training me in more effective dialog as I am working on patience and understanding in dealing with those who may disagree.
Gumby asks a great question:
Questions come my my mind about:
1. The way the God of the bible works...Killing millions in the old testament...turning the other cheek and loving your enemy in the NT?
This is a great question and a very complex one that would take more than just one entry on this posting. There is a historic redemptive way in which God works in the bible especially in the O.T. This would call for a particular study in theology called biblical theology. Biblical Theology consists of studying a particular individual author in what he writes concerning redemptive theological themes in the context of progress of progressive revelation. In one sense it is a hermeneutical method. For example if one where to study authors like Moses and Joshua where a lot of the action is in regards to killing he would discover the particular character of God in regards to his holiness, mercy, justice, and faithfulness to his covenant promises. You also get into the particular nature of covenants which may answer why most of the O.T. laws concerning Israel have been abrogated. I have a link I would like you to investigate that maybe helpful in studying the issue.
http://www.two-age.org/index.htm
Also Gumby, let me know what you thought of the Greg Bahnsen article I posted on your thread regarding the biblical canon.
Andi posts:
IMO, if you follow the two main commandments of Jesus:
1. Love the Lord with your whole heart, soul, mind, and body.
2. Love your neighbor as yourself.
...arguments over doctrine and other mainstream Christianity go by the wayside. Love breeds respect. If one can't show love, they can't show respect.
Wow, 1. Love the Lord with your whole heart, soul, mind, and body.
2. Love your neighbor as yourself.
This is no small task. Without Christ or a proper understanding of His active obedience (Christ accomplishing all the works of the law perfectly as the Father demands to be put in the believers account when they believe) a theological concept that you think should go by the wayside. These two great commandments can be overly burdensome and a tyrannical yoke to those who are not saved, or to those who are save but who’s consciences are weak due to a lack of theological understanding to give them the comfort of the truth of Christ’s active obedience. You see God wants these commandments done perfectly all the time. Well, good luck even the most mature Christians that we know can't do this. Love the Lord God with all your heart, soul, mind? And do that perfectly all the time. Right, I can’t even do it for one minute let alone perfectly all the time. Without Christ believers can’t even do this a fraction at a time or grow in these personal acts of obedience. Remember Christ did these in order that his own maybe saved and that they may do them and be pleasing to God even though done imperfectly. So you see theology cant be tossed out the window. Remember it’s on the premise of “not my works but Christ’s that get me to heaven. Andi, to you believe that and trust that message of Christ?
Andi reveals:
I am still trying to understand or grasp some of the doctrinal beliefs of many Christian churches. Some are just too difficult for me to accept, others not to much so. But when I really think about it, my relationship with Christ has nothing to do with what doctrinal issues I believe or NOT believe in. It has nothing to do with how many people I "convert" to Christianity. It has everything to do with how much love I show to them, even when I don't feel like it. It has everything to do with how patient and respectful I am of others...how much dignity I give them - even if they don't deserve it. THAT is how Christ lived his life - that's what I strive to do with mine.
To be truthful with you Andi, I was so sadden and grieved by this part of the posting and I pray that the Lord will open your eyes to what I have to say. Speaking of your relationship with God you said:
“ It has everything to do with how much love I show to them, even when I don't feel like it. It has everything to do with how patient and respectful I am of others...how much dignity I give them - even if they don't deserve it. THAT is how Christ lived his life - that's what I strive to do with mine
This is salvation by ones own works. You cannot look to your own works or deeds and appeal to that for your justification before a Holy God. If that is the case then we are truly grieved at your condition. Paul says in regarding his works Phil. 3:4-8
4though I also might have confidence in the flesh. If anyone else thinks he may have confidence in the flesh, I more so: 5circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews; concerning the law, a Pharisee; 6concerning zeal, persecuting the church; concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
7But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ. 8Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish(poop), that I may gain Christ
Trust the Lord alone for salvation appeal to his works not your own. Take the matter to the Lord and let him know that you forsake all of your righteousness and freely receive HIS.
May I ask what doctrines you found hard to except? Also It may be beneficial for you to take advantage of mid-week bible study at your church or a women’s bible study to help you understand the bible.
Plum, I do not wish you ill will. You see that the Lord does have common grace love for you in that he keeps you alive and provides for your needs. I hope that you would share in the peace that we know as Christians and share in his incredible riches. Salvation is a free gift. It’s not about counting field ministry hours making meetings following legalistic rules. Look Plum, Jesus is not one who is looking to pounce on you but to free you from the bondage of sin and give, yes give you his kingdom as an inheritance he has provided a way and his means. Repent and believe Jesus Christ. Read through the gospels and read Paul’s letters carefully and you will see the freeness of this gospel. Not you but Christ. Go to a local Christian bookstore and ask about what and where is a good church to visit. You may have to visit a few before you get settled in provide you receive Christ as your savior.
Soli Deo Gloria,
jr
LittleToe

Clash:
Are you a hypercalvinist?
If not, then you really do have an unfortunate way of expressing yourself. You come across to me as a dogmatic know-it-all, with no humility. I very much doubt that this is how you are in person.
I ask because of your comments to Andi, which were a little picky, to say the least.
You seem intent on making all your Christian brothers and sisters pull their socks up. This is not why we are on this forum.
Have you never heard of praying as if it were 100% God and acting like it was 100% man?
Further, would you mind using paragraphs, to break up your comments, please. It really would make it far easier to read.
Also, the patience and understanding thing is called tolerance...
Finally, before you continue your tirade against plum, it may pay you to ask her for a confession of faith.
I would hate to think that you were busying yourself abusing and stumbling "little ones".
clash_city_rockers

No Littletoe,
I am not a HyperCalvinist I totally believe in the free offer of the gospel to all and the work of common grace amoung all. In fact I 100% agree with Charles Spurgon's treeties against hypercalvinism. My views are the same as the Westminster standards.
LittleToe please give me your definition of hypercalvinism or what do you think hypercalvinism is? And is your definition of hypercalvinism is the same as the Church's through out the ages? Like Spurgon's or the Westminster divines or Cornelius Van Til? Or is your definition of hypercalvinism sort of a privitiezed subjective definition that is outside the reflection of many mature christians who have in the past articulated the matter?
To be clear are you equivicating on the term "hypercalvinism" using a different meaning than the standard definition used by the church through out the ages?
My Calvinism is the same as the Pastor of St. Georges Tron in Glasgow, Scotland. Pastor Sinclair Furgeson was a huge influence on me in the 90's when I was working the reformed system of doctrine out in the bible.
Please remember I am not your antagonist so please remember that we are suposed to be on the same side. Remember who you belong to (Eph 4:1) And I don't mean ill to the likes of Andi, and Plum.
If you care about these people then you should join in in exhorting them and encouraging them to Christ.
May the Grace of the Lord, the peace of God and the fellowship of the Holyspirit be with you,
jr
hillary_step

Though I am heartened to see that Clash is attempting to at least moderate his theologically uncompromising stance, as I have said before, the outcome of any exchange with him will always be the same.
This can be described as such: Clash is 100% right, everybody who disagrees with him, even slightly, *has* to be 100% wrong by definition. Do it Clash's way or die and face an everlasting grilling as a human casserole in Hell. Though you are all Satans fodder, he will pray for you because beneath the cruelty of his words is a heart big enough to bring sunshine to an Arctic winter.
You would be better off packing sawdust or weighing air, than trying to find common ground with this particular chap.
HS

X-JWs Who are now bible Christians

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