Billygoat. I enjoyed your post. What do you think about the questions posed in the post above yours? A breif comment would help.Every time I get to this point in these types of discussions....the damn thread runs out.
X-JWs Who are now bible Christians
by clash_city_rockers 169 Replies latest jw friends
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LittleToe
PointBlank:
It was your testimony that I was following. It sounds fairly similar to my own. I perhaps didn't format my reply appropriately.
As for doctrinal issues, I couldn't give a monkey's!
As a Spirit filled Christian, I'm pleased to call you brother. Period!BillyGoat:
"I am a work in progress"
Aren't we all .
Amen to that.
And you are correct - the whole obligation of man hangs on the two laws steeped in love.Just to reiterate and expand on something that I wrote earlier:
The letter to the Hebrews (chapter 6) was written to Christians who were being encouraged to mature and move on from the elementary doctrines.
The bottom line is that you can still be a Christian with merely the milk of the word.
We are all at various stages, and may press on or suffer atrophy, but nonetheless it is not for any to declare that we are or are not Christians. That is a call that has been made to us personally.Granted we will likely start producing the fruits and works that are nourished by the Spirit, but that measure is not one to be judged by others.
I sincerely believe, by virtue of my own experience, that if we have difficulty understanding or accepting something that is not a salvation issue, the Holy Spirit will let it pass (maybe just for the moment, maybe for our lifetime - who knows?).
To the extent that you seek out understanding, approaching it with a fresh slate and in obedience, the greater your comprehension may be.When I first began to be taught in this manner 1 Kings 3:9 was brought to my attention.
Sure I wanted knowledge and understanding, like Solomon, but I saw in that verse that something more was needed. I needed a heart that would be obedient to the thing heard, if I was to climb above what I had been indoctrinated with.For those that neither believe in the supernatural, nor that the Holy Spirit can "teach all things", please don't bother to flame me on this point. It's a matter of personal belief and you will have difficulty disproving it, just as I would likely have difficulty proving it to your satisfaction.
All of the above comes with the disclaimer that I may be completely mad and not have the foggiest idea what I'm talking about, but I love my Father and my Brother, and believe that the Holy Spirit continues to comfort and teach me day by day.
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LittleToe
Gumby:
I'll take a stab at your questions, if you like. I don't promise to be right or coherent, but...1. The way the God of the bible works...Killing millions in the old testament...turning the other cheek and loving your enemy in the NT?
A pretty tough one, this.
Viewed from 21st century eyes, with modern day sensibilities, most of history seems barbaric.
The Old Testament needs to be interpreted by looking at the New Testament (new light? ~ducks and runs~).
I imagine that the Calvinist viewpoint would be that God foreknew that they would not accept Him, so had them destroyed prematurely.
I have to humbly confess that this is one that I am continuing to study. Maybe someone else can help with this one...2. Why is their less than a handfull of historians/writers...other than Jesus believing Jews... who wrote about Jesus, who overturned the Roman world?
Have you a list of historical works during the period of the first century?
I am lead to believe (but couldn't confirm the veracity of this) that there are more writings about Jesus than Julius Caesar.
At the end of the day, the religious systems that sprung up to promulgate belief in Jesus far outlasted Emperor worship.3. What about the fact about the Catholic church being the librarians of which HOLY BOOKS would make up the bible as we know it.....I thought God would decide that ...if a book is what he wanted.
I suspect that the are many more ispired writing than just the canon of 66 books that we call the Holy Bible. I've personally been drawn to various books of the apocrypha (Ecclesiasticus, Esdras, etc.).
The Catholic church may have chained up certain volumes, but the Holy Spirit can teach all things that are beneficial for us.
It's pretty hard to get too far beyond the two laws, and they have been preserved (and laid up on most peoples hearts, regardless of religious persuasion).4. It has been said, many bible stories are identical to pagan myths....Is it possible the Jews were influenced by much of this and if this were true...would make the bible an absurd story book of a fanatical group called JEWS?
If you were to receive a vision of things far more advanced than you could truly comprehend, how would you describe it? Surely it would be in term that you understood or could describe, and that could be received by your contemporaries.
For example: Try describing a helicopter in terms understandable to someone from the 1st or 10th centuries AD.I don't feel THREATENED to inquire here
....do you?
Nope. And at the end of the day people will believe what they want to believe. That's freewill in action.Sorry about the unusually long post, guys.
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clash_city_rockers
Hi folks,
I hope everyone here had a good memorial day. Wow, I didn’t expect this much negative response. Look my aim is not to be offensive but to clearly speak my conviction and to be faithful to the scriptures. The first thing I want to do is address my Christian brothers who may have voiced some objection to the way I communicate my apologetics. I feel that since some of you guys are my confessing brothers and sisters in Christ that I owe you some sense of explanation and that I do appreciate you keeping me accountable. First of all that this thread was to do was to identify bible believing evangelicals for the purpose of gathering brothers and sisters together for the edification prayer teaming up for evangelism and so on. Now I did take into account that some who would response would not be truly Christian by doctrinal profession. For example RR who is one who is set in his ways of rejecting key essential doctrines such as Justification by faith alone, substatutionary atonement and the trinity. He can’t be considered a Christian because he has a different Jesus (Gal. 1:6-9). Now I have made it very clear on this thread that when one is saved they may not have to understand these doctrines, but Christ’ Lordship dictates that if one is truly converted by HIM they will not reject these doctrines. There is a difference between not understanding a doctrine and rejecting a doctrine. This is a fact my brothers and sisters that you must acknowledge. For example, Little Toe, when you got saved you didn’t understand the trinity but you didn’t reject it either. That is something that you should reflect on. Now I don’t know all of you but I would like to and this thread is a means of finding out who are my brothers and sisters are. I also realize that there is a great dynamic range of people here and where they are at in their relationship with God whether they are saved (good relationship) or not saved (bad relationship) and for the saved at what level of walk they are at. Now at this point I’m not trying to say that I’m better than you, you must understand that I’ve been at this for some 11 years. That is being a Christian and trying to work out through God’s word and reflecting on His word as a spirit filled Christian (as all Christians are spirit filled) what the Christian life is and what it means to walk with him in light of our modern world. One thing that the JWs take advantage of is the weakness to the church and the weakness of those who say they know Christ. As a new Christian one of the things I set out to do was to figure out why this was happening. The biblical message has the power to turn the world up side down and yet the modern evangelical church has no influence on culture. A lot of it sadly has to do with the fact that there are a lot who profess they are Christians when maybe they are not. As one who takes the message of Christ seriously I have to give an account for this. Finally to the ones I am familiar with in this board I do know and am always encouraged by Angie’s posts she speaks as one with joyful gratitude and who knows that her sins are forgiven and with the full assurance that she is right with God for all eternity. I am also glad so far and am edified by Penn this bro also speaks as one who knows and trusts Christ. And the same hopefully Lord willing can be said with Little. That is very cool that he goes to the Free Church, hopefully he will grow into a likeminded brother as one who appreciates the Westminster Confession of Faith.
Little Toe posted:
Your demeanor and dogmatism do neither you or the gospel any credit.
Sorry Little if I came off a little offensive but I do have a firm grip on what the fundamentals are. The Lord has been gracious in overseeing my growth in Him and has been the source of enthusiasm to learn his biblical truths for the last eleven years. Others in the church including the session have observed that I do have a solid grip (by His grace) on the fundamentals. I’m sure that if your session is just as like minded they would say the same and agree with me. As for the quote it was George Whitefield account of John Wesley. I may have think that the statement was a bit unguarded given the fact that Whitefield held to the forensic view of justification which is the heart of the gospel. Sadly Wesley wasn’t so solid on this point as he wavered back and forth from a forensic view of justification to a transformitive view. My guess and hope is that he may have trusted and exercised his faith and lived as if the forensic view was true.
Sorry, bro, but you either need to lighten up or realise what really are the fundamentals.
Did you never hear of the story of the Calvinist whose main detractor (an Arminian) died. Upon being told by a colleague "You'll never see HIM again", he replied "You are right, because he will be so much nearer the face of God than I" (inaccurate quote from memory).Little Toe, how does one take seriously a passage like 2 Cor. 10:4-5 in light of a Christ hating world. One has to walk as if this were true.
2 Corinthians 10:4-54For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, 5casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ,
My only exhortation Little comes from 2 Peter 3:17-1817Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position. 18But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen.
Now Little to “grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ” one has to “give a monkey’s *ass*” about doctrine. How can one know Jesus apart from doctrine.
One more thing. Little Toe said this:I sincerely believe, by virtue of my own experience, that if we have difficulty understanding or accepting something that is not a salvation issue, the Holy Spirit will let it pass (maybe just for the moment, maybe for our lifetime - who knows?).
This is what your church say’s on the matter. Remember your elders and pastor at the free church has thought these issues through so the are not a bunch of bumbling boobs when it comes to the matter of what is saving faith. I hope you will study the matter further and seek the fellowship and guidance of other fellow Christians in your congregation.
To the extent that you seek out understanding, approaching it with a fresh slate and in obedience, the greater your comprehension may be.
From the Westminster Confession of Faith. Little Toe’s official church documentsChapter XIV
Grace and Peace,
Of Saving Faith
I. The grace of faith, whereby the elect are enabled to believe to the saving of their souls, is the work of the Spirit of Christ in their hearts, and is ordinarily wrought by the ministry of the Word, by which also, and by the administration of the sacraments, and prayer, it is increased and strengthened.
II. By this faith, a Christian believes to be true whatsoever is revealed in the Word, for the authority of God Himself speaking therein; and acts differently upon that which each particular passage thereof contains; yielding obedience to the commands, trembling at the threatenings, and embracing the promises of God for this life, and that which is to come. But the principal acts of saving faith are accepting, receiving, and resting upon Christ alone for justification, sanctification, and eternal life, by virtue of the covenant of grace.
III. This faith is different in degrees, weak or strong; may often and many ways assailed, and weakened, but gets the victory: growing up in many to the attainment of a full assurance, through Christ, who is both the author and finisher of our faith.
jr -
clash_city_rockers
Some books that had an effect on me and my walk with the Lord in understanding evangelicalism and modern Christianity I hope they can be just as bennificial to you as they were to me. you can go to http://www.amazon.com and check these out.
David Wells--No Place for Truth or What ever happen to Evangelical Theology
David Wells--God in the Waistland
John Armstrong--The Compromiesed Church
John Armstrong--The Comming Evangelical Crisis
R. Fowler White--What Ever Happen to the Reformation
Michael Horton--In the Face of God, the Dangers and Delights of Spiritual Intamacy
Michael Horton--Made in America
Nathan O'Hatch--Democratization of American Christianity -
SEAKEN2001
Point Blank, Gumby, Andi, Little Toe,
thank you for your balanced comments.
Clash,
thank you for making it very clear how wide the gap is between reason and wishful thinking.
Sean
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LittleToe
Clash:
I'm at work and I haven't got time to read your incredibly long post, right now, but I shall. I shall also offer you a proper reply afterwards. -
plmkrzy
Clash
“Wow, I didn’t expect this much negative response.”
If you “read” maybe a little more carefully, You would possibly see that most of the responses, if not all with the exception of yours, were very positive in regards to “Christianity”.
“Now I did take into account that some who would response would not be truly Christian by doctrinal profession.”
Did you think to take into account that neither was or is Jesus?
“How can one know Jesus apart from doctrine.”
Your doctrins are made of men who have told you how to think.
You didn't get like this on your own you were lead into this mind set by men with books who impressed you
even more then Christ himself.
It is very common obviously. It happens all the time.You do however seem to me, after reading your latest post, to be trying to accomplish something honestly from your heart so I personally am no longer offended by you.
There is a saying that is very fitting to you.
“You can’t see the forest for the trees”In your case is goes,
“You can’t see your savior Jesus for the Doctrines”I say this with not one bit of sarcasim but concern based on expierence.
You are simply “High” on doctrines.
You have been swallowed up into another cultism frame of mind and there is no reasoning with you and never will be until you wake up and see what you have allowed your self to become.“Now I have made it very clear on this thread that when one is saved they may not have to understand these doctrines, but Christ’ Lordship dictates that if one is truly converted by HIM they will not reject these doctrines. There is a difference between not understanding a doctrine and rejecting a doctrine.”
This is a perversion of Christ and another perversion of scripture.
You have simply, like many before you, have taken Jesus and molded him and his teachings to fit someones interpretation of doctrins.I can say this easily and from the heart as a clear thinking TRUE Christian with a healthy relationship with Christ Jesus and his Father. And I clearly understand the difference and feel the TRUE comfort that it brings me.
Plum, of the authentic Christian class
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LittleToe
Clash:
I appreciate your zeal, and I sense that you, too, are a brother in Christ. You are keen to evangelise, but do so in a manner that befits a different audience.
Please don't take this the wrong way, but I think that Plm may have hit the nail on the head when she called you on your reliance on men.Churches can be a stepping stone to finding Christ, but upon being called the Christian may easily succumb to the advances of men, tradition, theology, etc.
It is a very slippery stone indeed, when one starts to put these ahead of our Saviour. In many respects you would be safer getting out, rather than falling upon the treadmill of pleasing men.Is it acceptable to be men pleasers, just because those men are within the congregation? Else, would it be wrong only when they exist outside of our tradition? How do you feel about Arminianists, can you view them as brothers in Christ?
My salvation didn't depend on any doctrine other than accepting Christ.
I don't think your example of having a good or bad relationship with God holds true. I think you'll find that the confession highlights that man is alienated from God (since the fall) and comes into a relationship (communion) with Him. Whether that is rich or poor will likely be a result of drawing close to Him, or otherwise.Whilst I appreciate the Westminster Confession of Faith (also the Institutes, and Berkhoff's Systematic Theology) I hold it as a subordinate standard to the inspired word, as I imagine you do yourself.
You will not bludgeon me with the Confession, nor any word of man.
I'll happily consider your other points in another thread, if you wish. -
cellomould
This is a good book and I highly recommend it! The author is a genuine source of compassion and insight.
cellomould
"My toes taste really good" J.R. Brown
