by Simon 1524 Replies latest members adult
@KateWild - your post no. 4608 makes a good point - there are some 'nice' verses in the Quran, perhaps Islamic reform can start from there.
I have a genuine question to anybody on this thread that's qualified to answer: are there any Quranic verses that explicitly say 'pardon/forgive/show mercy to the infidel'?
Lisa,,, just watch this video then apologise
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=253_1412566275
This is your average MODERATE UK MUSLIMS,,, The ones you, Frazzeld and kate are supporting!...
watch the video, then tell us that this is what you want in your country...
Mana,
1) There is no context provided. What exactly is going on here? The speaker, due to what he says he believes, is clearly a fundamentalist/radical Muslim, not a moderate. Who is this speaker? How was the audience gathered?
2) The psychology of what was happening in the video means we can't know what the people in the audience really think.
The speaker turns the camera on the audience (huge conformity pressure) and asks a series of leading questions, starting with easy ones building to crazy ones, that seem to have only one answer: 'Are you a normal, regular Muslim?'<-easy one, hands up. Of course everyone says they are normal. 'do you believe men and woman should sit separately? <-a little tougher but still easy to conform to even if one doesn't believe tht. hands up. yeah, sure they can say they believe that. 'Do you believe whatever Allah says in the Koran is right even if it is killing?' <--crazy one. if they don't raise their hand, they don't believe in Allah, if they do raise their hand they believe the Koran calls for killing. But they pyschology of the situation is such that most people sitting in that room have been influenced to go ahead and raise their hands at that question
the pressure of group conformity is just one of the enormous pressures on them in this situation...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sno1TpCLj6A
3) Since these people have been subjected to intense pyschological pressure in this video, it is impossible to know from the video what these people really think. But even if every single person in that audience really is a radical Muslim, that only proves that this is a video of a room full of radical Muslims. (which I don't think it really is. I think it is a room full of potential radical Muslims and this speaker is trying to recruit them/convert them. but of course we can't know since no context at all is given).
4) Since there are numerous other possible explanations for why the audience raised their hands besides the conclustion "Moderate Muslims really do support stoning people to death" I can't make that conclusion based on this video.
@lisaBObeesa - you might want to reconsider your view that most muslims don't support stoning.
The following muslim-majority countries or areas have de jure stoning: Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Sudan, northern Nigeria and Mauritania. In Pakistan recently a woman was stoned to death outside Lahore court by her own family, including her father, because she married a man without their consent. The police or members of the public didn't stop this and most family members fled the scene. It seems Pakistan has de facto stoning.
What do you think about this?
Saudi Arabia has 25,493,000 Muslims.
Yemen has 24,023,000 Muslims.
Sudan has 30,855,000 Muslims.
Nigeria has 75,728,000 Muslims. (can't get number for just Northern Nigeria so we will have to use entire country)
Mauritania has 3,338,000 Muslims
Pakistant has 178,097,000 Muslims (don't think we should include all of Pakistan in this based on one story, but what the hell.)
That is a total of about 337 million Muslims. If we assume that every single one of that 337 million believe in stoning and there 1.57 billion Muslims in the world...
1.57 billion - 337 million
= about 1.2 BILLION Muslims who do not believe in stoning people to death.
Most Muslims do not believe in stoning people to death.
Eric Allen Bell is a writer, filmmaker, political commentator director of a spiritual blog. In recent years, for better or for worse, he has been defined in the public eye by his sharp criticism of Political Islam.
He is also known for being a cult leader. How ironic.
'I have been mistreated by non-Muslims for being Jewish' - that's wrong. If these non-muslims have broken the law they should be punished; if they have managed to stay within the law they should still hang their heads in shame.
Are there any Quranic verses that explicitly say 'pardon/forgive/show mercy to the infidel'?
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cricketts..chirp chirp
@lisaBObeesa - if you read my comment carefullly you will note that with regard to the stoning in Pakistan, the authorities and public failed to stop it even though it was directly outside a court. Most of the family managed to flee. What does that suggest about Pakistani society and extra-judical stoning?
Despite having stoning commanded by Yahweh in the OT, the Jewish state of Israel does not have stoning as a capital punishment.
Why does Saudi Arabia, Yemen, etc. have stoning but Israel does not?
lisaBObeesa: 'Most Muslims do not believe in stoning people to death.' - please provide evidence for that statement.
Any religious writings can be cherry picked and interpreted any way one wants to. If not, why so many sects of each faith?
There is more violence being perptrated by muslims on other muslims than anyone else. Christian milita are killing muslims in Central Africa. Catholics and Anglicans were killing each other and innocent bystanders for most of the last century. Christians are killing gays in Uganda.
The point is, that religious zealotry of any kind can be dangerous. When you let religion in to government, you have provided a perfect atmosphere for violent extremism to grow.
@lisaBObeesa - if you read my comment carefullly you will note that with regard to the stoning in Pakistan, the authorities and public failed to stop it even though it was directly outside a court. Most of the family managed to flee. What does that suggest about Pakistani society and extra-judical stoning?
I included all the Muslims in Pakistan in the 'believes in stoning people' number, though clearly it is illegal there and very rare.
Despite having stoning commanded by Yahweh in the OT, the Jewish state of Israel does not have stoning as a capital punishment.
Why does Saudi Arabia, Yemen, etc. have stoning but Israel does not?
A better question is why, when only 6 Muslim majority countries have stoning as capital punishment and 44 Muslim majority countries in the world do not have stoning as capital punishment, do you not conclude that most Muslims do not stone peope to death?
It's amazing that people on here are so brainwashed, that they would defend a religion that has such a well established record of intolerance, hating women, and wanting to wipe Jews and Christains off of the face of the earth. I really would like to know what their motivation is for doing so.
Hey Kate what do you think of these verses below?
"Any religion other than Islam is not acceptable." (3:85)
"Terrorise and behead those who believe in scriptures other than the Qur’an." (8:12)
"Kill the Jews and the Christians if they do not convert to Islam or refuse to pay Jizya tax." (9:29)
"Don’t take Jews or Christians for friends. If you do, then Allah will consider you to be one of them." (5:51)
"The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him." - al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 177
"Do not hanker for peace with the infidels; behead them when you catch them." (47:4)
I'm not sure you've been watching the news lately, but the rhetotic for destroying Israel is way up. So, when the Islamic countries of the middle east make their big move to wipe out Isreal, are you still going to defend "the religion of peace"?
Even if you're a "moderate" Islam believer, on some level you still have to silently consent to this inexcusable crap in the Qur'an, don't you?
But lisa the Pakistani public, police, judges, etc. allowed the stoning to happen. Some people could surely have prevented it from happening. Why was it allowed to go on? What conclusions can be drawn from this?
Stoning may or may not be rare in Pakistan but it happens. In the 21st century!
lisa - the world's only Jewish state, Israel, could have stoning, with the support of Jewish scripture. But it does not - FACT.
In contrast some muslim countries have stoning written in their judical system - FACT. I don't think it's based on the Quran, it might be based Muhammad's words in the Hadith.
