many atheists use the inerrancy of the Bible as reason to not believe
The contradictions, errors and moral depravity of the bible is proof it wasn't inspired of a benevolent, omnipotent deity. That is a fact.
Leaving the JWs, experiencing Christianity and finding freedom! (But it took awhile)
by im_free 99 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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cofty
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Master_Bob
I am afraid you missed my point.. There is no strict distinction between facts and opinions as jhine wants us to believe. According to your definition everything is opinion, even dinosaurs living with people (because THERE ARE some people holding this opinion). A well educated man can quickly dismiss this opinion as BS. An educated man knows that Kraft's and Metzger's opinions on NT have quite different weight. An educated man knows the difference between serious textual scholarship and religious bias.
jhine says
"atheists use the inerrancy of the Bible as reason to not believe"
that's not quite so. They don't neet a reason to NOT belive, they are seeking a reason to belive and they can't find an adequate. Atheists don't have a reason to belive in Bible in the first place, as they don't believe in Quran, LotR, or Hesiod's Theogony. Scholars have shown that there is nothing extraordinary in the Bible that can persuade a logically thinking object believe in it's extraordinary claims. You can still choose to believe it, but not because there are objective proofs.
humbled says
And if Jesus said some good things? DO THEM. and teach them. Does it matter if he was divine?
According to Chirstians it matters a LOT. Because to them "what Jesus said"="good". If you can judge what is good for your own, then why you need Jesus in the first place?
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galaxie
Master bob ;..exactly !! How many people in 'jesus time 'said or did good things what's so special about jesus supposed utterances.
The reason d'etre for all of us using this forum is precisely because of the significance given to this arguable individual.
Is it not about time mankind dismissed this ancient guesswork and concentrate on the good works of our contemporaries who deal with the present and work towards a better future without attaching the outcome to complex and controversial ancient myth.
Best wishes.
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humbled
Good morning, friends.
jhine, Without doubt we have trouble properly tagging our opinions and leaving them for such matters as parting our hair and picking our favorite color. But it is fair to say that there are levels of biblical error that are insubstantial. Yet some that are so corrosive that they overpower our formerly held OPINION. Former theists have had corrosive levels of reasonable doubt penetrate our minds. Doubt that has us fearing on two sides--Is it a dishonor to the concept of a loving and all-powerful God to question Him? Is it a dishonor to a loving and all-merciful God not to ask the questions that are reasonable?
It is fiction to support that the bible is a comprehensive harmonious whole. That is intellectual honesty. That said, it is on another basis, a historical one that some former Christians have turned from Theism. Only last night I read a bit that Dr Ehrman was not thrown off his Christian horse because of the inerrancy issue--Rather he could find no support for the historical validity for the Jesus/Christ/God story being a fact.
I agree that there are atheists who simply look at the mad scramble of the bible and, never having been programmed through a sunday school, find inerrancy is a good enough reason to forego Christianity--
Speaking to a discredited Jesus story and the need to leave the myth out of mankind's future:
Galaxie said, "Is it not about time mankind dismissed this ancient guesswork and concentrate on the good works of our contemporaries who deal with the present and work toward a better future without attaching the outcome to complex and controversial ancient myth?"
Intellectually, this is a great idea. But if we took this statement into the neediest or/and most uneducated neighborhoods of the world--excluding no one for reasons of race, religion, age, sex, or place of national origin you would find your program for good foundering very soon. IN MY OPINION!
Yes, in my opinion, all of us are impelled by some mythos or example--some combination of the hand-me-downs of others whose stories have impressed us. a good grandpa, our mother or father. Perhaps a teacher or a neighbor or family friend. Master-Bob asked this:" If you can judge what is good for your own, then why you need Jesus in the first place?"
Have you ever been in a place so destitute of goodness that there are no good examples that shine bright enough, no education to break through a culture that has become corrupt of generousity? And one that is poor. Why has the Jesus story persisted? It has transcended these barriers. And I have to say this, too: the Jesus stories have tremendous power for this huge reason--the forgiveness .
I put this out there because in my area, there are not enough mental health worker to provide even stop-gap measures for deeply damaged individuals, families, communities. Some need to feel clean. The best of the teachings of a good teacher are as wonderful and empowering as a miracle of physical healing. "Clean the inside of the cup that the outside might be clean also"--whether or not it was original to Jesus or not, this teaching has affected my life.
It is a subject worthy of discussion to ask ourselves if we were shaped in any way that was good by the words of Jesus' teaching. Our cultire hasn't outgrown the need for a rallying point, examples/teachers that transcends our experience. Does he/she have to be divine and born of a virgin?
These are just thoughts. The world still needs saving even if there is no Savior. I wonder about that.
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im_free
YouTube is to evidence as McDonalds is to fine cuisine. You need to raise the bar a long, long way.
I am talking about actual, objective verfiable evidence. Not internet anecdotes
cofty, now you are obviously an intelligent guy. However, I expected more than to hear you simply dismiss an entire medium of video communication by saying youtube is beneath your intellectual standards. You say there is no video evidence which is why I referred you to youtube. How else would someone show you video evidence? If this was 1985, i would send you a vhs tape, but we don't do that anymore. The video evidence is there if you choose to look. In the age of youtube, there is more evidence than there ever was.
I was expecting to hear a reasonable, logical explanation of supernatural phenomenon instead of a broad dismissal.
Simply making a broad statement that evidence doesn't exist and that it is all mere superstition and mental illness doesn't explain it. Dismissing all video evidence is avoiding the issue altogether.
Your claim: Supernatural phenomenon does not exist. What are these experiences that people are having and have had all over the world, throughout history? The video is there whether you choose to look or not. The question is..what is it?
We either live in a supernatural world or simply a material word.
I believe that the term "supernatural" is a misnomer. That world is actually the natural and we are currently living in a "subnatural" world. There is much more going on around us that we don't understand. The "fictitious" Bible happens to explain it. Jesus explained it. Can you?
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Master_Bob
im_free this video appears on the first page of youtube search:
Now why do we have to belive that this guy is not just pretending? Because of the conservation with the "deamon"? And since when "deamons" obey television censorship laws? Do you also belive David Copperfield magics are real?
humbled it good to hear that Jesus' stories made you more generous and forgiving. There are people that don't appreciate his treatment of slaves and gentiles that much. I prefer to evaluate the consequences of my actions in the real world that we live and act according to results of evaluatiion with the goal to make the world a better place.
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new hope and happiness
I dont have many interlectual friends: - but i was aquainted with a professor in literaute. He said to me:- " Mike there is no such thing as a badly written book, there is only a badly read book" I thought that was a stupid comment. I dont see it that way now..
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cofty
im_free - Videos are not evidence of anything. Take you pick of strange phenomena - from aliens to the Loch Ness monster to Bigfoot - and I will find you a YouTube video that "proves" it's true. To be compelling it would have to be recorded under carefully controlled conditions.
Does it not seem strange to you that every single attempt to recreate "supernatural" events with any degree of objectivity always fails - 100% of the time? James Randi's $1million prize remains unclaimed.
There is a scientist called Susan Blackmore who believed these events deserved careful scientific investigation. She was convinced that at least some of them were genuine and that she could prove it. After decades of investigation she stopped her research. Every single time it turned out that people had lied, were deluded or just had over-active imaginations.
You should do some research on Occam's Razor.
What are these experiences that people are having and have had all over the world, throughout history?
Superstition.
Humans have evolved a tendency to ascribe agency to random events. It is a psychological quirk that kept our ancestors alive. We are all descended from thousands of generations of ancestors who were quick to see agency and purpose where there was none. It is how our minds are wired.
There is much more going on around us that we don't understand. The "fictitious" Bible happens to explain it. Jesus explained it. Can you?
Actually the bible explains nothing. To say "god or the demons did it" adds not a jot to our human knowledge. It is a conversation-stopper. A substitute for an actual answer. Jesus was simply a man of his superstitious times. He could not tell the difference between epilepsy and demonic possession.
Science is the only tool to investigate what is true. It provides real answers that work. It is science that has pushed back superstition, conquered fears of demons and inspired civilised societies to stop burning witches.
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jhine
Humbled , firstly I am sorry that I have taken so long to get back to the thread . Yesterday (Saturday ) was a busy day and I did not get time to log onto the site .
I have not become a member of JWN to try to "convert " anyone . As I constantly say , like a broken record , I wanted to learn more about the Watchtower , that 's all . I do feel the need , where it arises to ,challenge false statements and to keep on making the point that just because ANYONE says someting with apparent authority on the subject please do not take the statement as fact without seeing for yourself .
An example - on another thread someone said "we KNOW that Herod died in 4bc " He was using this "fact" , among others which were debatable ,to prove the historical inaccuracy of the Bible . Some simple digging showed that the date for Herod's death is very much up for grabs , we cannot be sure when it was .
Yes I know that I am putting myself up for the title of " MIss Pedantic 2014 " and others cannot see why it matters , but if the accuracy of the Bible is to be disputed at least base the arguments on solid ground .
Of course it is not wrong to ask questions that are reasonable . We are to use our GOD given power of reasoning and itellect , I would never discourage anyone from that , just please base your reasoning on all that is known , not just repeat the statements of others without questioning THEM .
Jan
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humbled
Jhine,
Thanks for responding.
The problem of securing the most current and the most reliable information on facts of the bible is never-ending.
How to ascertain that most current and reliable information requires one to already know what the factors are that bear on biblical scholarship to begin with. To evaluate the material and recognize the weight of a scholarly opinion requires a measure of knowledge, too. And I must say that I am wary of any scholar's findings being unbiased who has made strong testimony of unshakable faith in the bible. In a secular court this one would be kept even from a jury. A judge would recuse himself. One of the worst things that we can have happen to us is to be convinced of what is true before it has been proven.
The book of Job has scholarly reasons to suppose the beginning an ending had been added to an older story. The language structure an use of expressions were estimated as distant in time and geography from the Israelites. There were additions others supposed also-the speach of Elihu. It doesn't matter after a bit--not to me. The unerlying issue is this: for a person to sort out fact from fiction on their own is SILLY!
I find it incredible that a person in my situation is even on a computer and writing and thinking about any of this. Who has the time? I really don't. Who has the education? I have read and read and thought and thought. And I listen. And still--how educate am I? how knowledgeable?
I do happen to believe there was a carpenter who told great stories and had a great heart--my opinion. "love you neighbor as yourself" wasn't original but he taught it to me. At least I got his version of it in the Good Samaritan story. Beyond that--teaching and a few others--nothing need be verified. These stories contain all the practical aspects of living I can handle in any given day. That is as much sifting as I am capable of.
In fact, I will consider myself cured of religion when I can quit obsessing over the issue of Truth and get back to little "t" living.
Really, I appreciate your hanging onto the conversation. Your exploration of the WT will show you how the pitfalls of one-up-manship in biblical correctness can consume and burn people.
Be careful.
Maeve