Leaving the JWs, experiencing Christianity and finding freedom! (But it took awhile)

by im_free 99 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Master_Bob

  im_free wellcome to the forum. Take your time and continue researching, you have some serious reading to do
  
  " What specifically in your own words did you disagree with Ehrman about?" - cofty

  haha, man I love this line! Real time saver.
• 

  Apognophos

  That quote from C. S. Lewis really is hopeless, though. Scientific ideas prove their worth by providing a model for interacting successfully with the universe to achieve our aims. Calling scientific thoughts "accidental" isn't even wrong, it's a meaningless statement.
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  dabster

  cofty, I like Ben Witherington apparently for the same reason that you like Bart Ehrman. Their works make for compelling reading. I'd encourage you, since you "don't want to be wrong any longer than necessary", to read Witherington's analysis - all six parts - and get back to us with your answers. You'll find him to be a formidable sparing partner in debate.
• 

  cofty

  dabster - this is a discussion forum. Asking somebody to go away and read an online book because you are too lazy to summarise the main points of his argument is not a discussion.

  Have you read Witherington's 6 part blog? If so what were the strongest arguments he made in favour of biblical inspiration? As succinctly as posisble please and in your own words.

  You will notice I always present arguments and evidence first and then suggest further reading. That is how we do discussions.
• 

  dabster

  I made the suggestion, cofty, as you had suggested im_free read Ehrman - and because you wanted to know the truth as soon as possible. For yourself, I assumed. It's a very detailed analysis, outside the scope of a discussion forum even in précis form but which would potentially help anyone interested in extra-curricular reading In forming a view. No need though. We can let the matter rest.
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  cofty

  dabster - I was a born-again for 9 years after I left the Watchtower and was a very keen student of theology during that time. I am familiar with all the arguments in favour of biblical inspiration. If you think I may have missed something specific please share.

  On the previous page you rehearsed some hackneyed canards about atheism. I responded in some detail. You insisted I go away and read a very long 6 part blog.

  Is that it?
• 

  jhine

  Cofty , can I go back to a statement that you made a (lot ) earlier that parts of Job were added later . Would you explain what makes you believe that please ?

  BTW I always sign Jan and also was not aware of the ettiquete of using online names only . I do not mind at all if someone addresses me as Jan , but I leave it up to the individual .

  Jan
• 

  im_free

  There are some bold statements being made here which I would like to challenge:

  There has never been a convincing incident recorded ever. The world is full of cameras and yet there is not a shred of evidence.

  This is not true. Do a simple search of "demon possession" in youtube and you will find much evidence.

  https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=demon+possession

  You will see that it is more than superstition that occurs in someone's mind. There are physical manifestations. I guess you can say that it is all special effects or people playing tricks with the camera. People with mental problems, etc. All i can say is, I've personally known and have met people who have had these experiences. They are not crazy. You have every right to say that you are not convinced, however you cannot say that there has never been any convincing recorded evidence ever. There are many that would disagree with you on that one due to personal experience in addition to these recorded videos out there. As you have suggested to me that I read Ehrman regarding atheism and naturalism, I would like to suggest to you that you take a look at Russ Dizdar regarding the supernatural. He does not speak from research. He deals with this stuff full time.

  Also I'm disappointed in this quote:

  It is beyond sensible debate that humans evolved over millions of years from a common ancestor of all living things. Only people who are ignorant or biased hold otherwise.

  This is just as convincing as someone saying:

  "It is beyond sensible debate that the Bible is true and God is real. Only people who are ignorant or biased hold otherwise."

  I thought we were being analytical and logical here?

  Also I would like to challenge these statements:

  We know that there exodus never happened. The OT is typical of the sort origin myth that nations tell themselves in order to create a sense of shared history. History tells us that Israel was a collection of modest nomadic tribes who settled down and spent centuries fighting neighbouring tribes.

  Creation account and tales of patriarchs down to the time of the Egyptian captivity: no evidence

  http://www.jewishjournal.com/passover/article/passover_proof_lies_in_egyptian_hieroglyphs_20100324

  From the article:

  In each of the Egyptian manuscripts Dayan discussed, the same familiar characters are mentioned: Moses (“an Egyptian name”), Pharoah, the Red Sea/Sea of Reeds (“Yam Suf” in Hebrew), Hebrews, Israelites and the presence of slaves in Egypt.

  In one manuscript, known as the Ipuwer papyrus, there is an eerie description of chaos in Egypt: “Plague is throughout the land,” Dayan’s translation reads, “blood is everywhere — the river is blood ... and the hail smote every herd of the field ... the land is without light and there is a thick darkness throughout the land ... the Lord smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt — from the firstborn of Pharoah that sat on his throne to the firstborn of the captive who was in the prison. ...”

  “As an Israeli and a Jew, I can tell you they will do everything they can not to let you dig in Egypt,” Dayan said. “I tried to do it with a French passport, but I didn’t succeed because I was born in Jerusalem. I think the Egyptians today are very afraid that we will find more to support the theory that we lived in the delta.”

  Any thoughts?

  Also, please explain how parts of Job were added later. Evidence please?
• 

  OnTheWayOut

  I would argue for this statement: We know that there exodus never happened. But I feel it would just be a swapping of dismissing evidences and stating that the lack of evidence doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. Instead, let's go to this: I think the Egyptians today are very afraid that we will find more to support the theory that we lived in the delta.

  WHY? If any such evidence exists that Jews lived in the delta, what difference would it make? They wouldn't give reparations anymore than the USA gave reparations to enslaved Africans or their future generations. Any valuable evidence of anything in Egypt would promote tourism and would bring money from science and archeology to Egypt.
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  Phizzy

  An Ancestor of mine lived in and owned a vast swathe of Northen France, I want it back !

  Mind you, the Israelis claim to the land they live in now is as tenuous as saying they should own a chunk of Egypt too.

  We, British and Americans, should never have established the rights they have now, but too late of course, what's done is done.