by im_free 99 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Welcome im_free!
My wife and I have come to exactly the same conclusions from "independently" pursuing the unabridged gospel (especially according to Paul, and especially in Romans).
Greetings and blessings
Fernando
SEQ, Australia
(Our family left the WBTS and religion for good mid-2009, after 4 decades and 4 generations)
Welcome! I was never in so I can't answer all of your questions. However from what I've read on here it's common for leavers to remain religious for a period. Some remain that way, others eventually give up on all faith based explanations.
Best wishes, wherever your journey takes you.
WELCOME
Welcome.
Once it is clear that the foundation scriptures of the Hebrew scriptures are inaccurate stories or a, at best, allegories--there is nothing on which to hang "Truth". Truth as organized religion has it.
The bible's stories of Jesus have him saying"Just as it was in the days of Noah..." Really, did Jesus subscibe to the Flood of Noah?
Nevertheless, the Jesus teachings have saved me. If I have found rich stories in the bible, still I do not trust it--so I do not fit into a christian church.
I am glad you had the nerve to read CoC while you were still "in". Brave.
Thanks for warm welcomes everyone!
It's therapeutic reading your responses to this thread. Almost like a certain kind of closure in some strange way hearing from people like you who came from the same place.
Based on my experience, atheism raised more questions than it answered for me. One of them was regarding human history. Assuming the Bible is purely fictional, that is.
How can the fact that the Gregorian calendar is based on a fictional character be explained? I have a hard time believing that the whole world is basing it on the tooth fairy, if Jesus was not real.
Also, purely looking at it from a non-religious, historical viewpoint, how can you ignore Jesus' influence on world events in the past 2000 years? Christianity and world history are tied at the hip. Something epic happened back then that changed the world that set things in motion that influenced entire cultures. Again, it doesn't make sense to me that all this is based on something that a fictional character did.
How do you explain to the Jewish people that their history is fictional? The Bible records their origins and history in detail. That is like someone from another culture saying to an American that George Washington, the civil war, the constitution are all fictional and someone just made up stories in the history books.
Also what about all of the archaeological evidence of events in the Bible which has inscriptions of specific names and dates?
There are so many other questions that were raised for me when i assumed an atheistic view. These are just a few. After wrestling with these questions, I've come to the conclusion that you need more faith to be an atheist than to believe in a creator.
As unpleasant as the whole Jehovah experience was for me, I've come full circle and can't deny the existence of God and that he left something for us in the form of a holy writings and also that he was here in person. I don't want to make the mistake of throwing the baby out with the bathwater just because some self righteous, overly ambitious and twisted legalists decided to misrepresent it.
If all this were just based on fantasy, we are looking at a scam of epic proportions that spans thousands of years which would be totally mindblowing.
I'd be interested in hearing how you have come to terms with some of these questions on your way to atheism if you have gone there?
Welcome Im_free, it is so nice to hear you and your wife got out of the religion while you were still young. You have a lot of wonderful years ahead of you. My husband was a born in 3rd & 4th generation and we came out when he was 58 and I was 56. So many lose their spouses when one wakes up and the other doesn't so it always makes me happy to hear when a couple comes out together.
I did not rush into anything when we left and at this point I am happy where I am. I do not believe the god of the bible and if there really is a loving god then why is he allowing millions to suffer and I do not believe what the JW's answer is on this subject.
There maybe a creator and maybe not. Whenever someone says look around there has to be a creator but my reasoning is if there is a creator then who created them? There are those that say the big bang theory is false but if you look at the belief of a god then isn't it the same? He just appeared?
I also do not judge people for their beliefs as long as they are not hurting others. I believe cults are very dangerous and I am very vocal on their damage but whether you choose to believe in a god or not I think you should do what makes you happy. If you still have questions then keep searching. Many get out of a cult and rush back into something without giving themselves time to heal. I know from experience that what I felt about things at 30 is not how I feel about things at 58. Keep an open mind because there is a lot to be gained and as we all know a lot to lose when you close your mind.
Hi I'm_free, welcome to the forum! I am not an atheist and I agree with much of what you say but I think it's a bit unfair to imply people abandoned god because of the way JWs misrepresented god, it might be somewhat true in some cases, but certainly not all and it's impossible to make that judgement anyway. I am not sure if you meant this but it's just how it came across... Looking forward to getting to know you better!
im-free - You seem to be making a common mistake about atheism.
You said - "when i assumed an atheistic view" as if atheism was one possible set of beliefs among many.
Atheism simply means a lack of belief in god. It says nothing about the historicity of Jesus or the historical accuracy of the OT.
I didn't decide to be an atheist. I studied the facts over many years. For example I came to understand that evolution is a fact. Once you understand the evidence it is impossible to deny. Until we have objectively studied some really good resources written by evolutionary biologists we don't even qualify to have an opinion.
This fact of evolution has to change how we view many important theological issues.
I learned about the origins of the bible and saw how it is impossible to reconcile some of the problems with the text. It contains many contradictions that really matter.
Personally I think there was a historical Jesus - others disagree. What is for a certainty is that he was not supernatural in any sense. I actually don't find a lot of what he said to be admirable. That he had wrong expectations about eschatology is beyond doubt.
I think it is important to really understand both sides of these issues. I studied theology in some depth. I really understand the very best answers theism can offer to the big questions and can argue it from either side. For a number of years I was on the preaching rota at an evangelical church. I was 100% sincere in my christian faith - forgiven, redeemed, saved, adopted, born-again son of god. When you say your faith has had a positive effect on you as a person I know exaclty what you mean. I also made the effort to examine the arguments made in favour of creationism and Intelligent Design.
Since leaving the Watchtower 20 years ago I have never stopped reading and debating and learning. It is for this reason that I am an atheist. It has nothing to do with negative experiences in the cult or in christianity.
I would be happy to discuss any of these issues with you at length and there are many others here who are experts in these topics. Please be cautious about those who want to reinforce your faith through Private Messages that may include criticism of myself and other atheists - I know this goes on. The only honest way to discuss these things is in public where our assertions can be held up to scrutiny.
Best wishes. Bill aka Cofty
With all due respect, im_free, you have a loooooot of reading to do in order to catch up with the knowledge level of some of the atheist posters on this forum. But I don't have an appetite for debating this stuff with a newcomer in their introduction thread. I would rather congratulate you on leaving the JW religion and keep things positive and focused on our common ground. Feel free to start a new thread if you really want to discuss some of the questions that you brought up before, but be warned -- there are answers to your questions.
Laika, sorry if it came across like that. I was just speaking about myself there.
Bill, Maybe i was being too simplistic with my view of atheism but to me it was simply not believing there is a God which then meant not believing in the Bible as a historical work. In extension, which meant belief in evolution. I explored it at this level. I think i got it generally right but I stand corrected if I painted with a wide brush. I understand there may be varying degrees of atheism and other complexities that I may ot be aware of.
I would be interested to hear your most compelling evidence regarding how you came to conclude atheism and evolution as fact.
But the question I would like to ask first to you and other atheists here is the flip side of the God issue. Do you believe there is a Satan? Is it just superstition or is there a supernatural evil force that is beyond our 5 senses in your view?
