Leaving the JWs, experiencing Christianity and finding freedom! (But it took awhile)

by im_free 99 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  cofty

  This is not true. Do a simple search of "demon possession" in youtube and you will find much evidence. - im_free

  YouTube is to evidence as McDonalds is to fine cuisine. You need to raise the bar a long, long way.

  I am talking about actual, objective verfiable evidence. Not internet anecdotes.

  Also I'm disappointed in this quote: It is beyond sensible debate that humans evolved over millions of years from a common ancestor of all living things. Only people who are ignorant or biased hold otherwise.

  Why? What books about evolution writen by evolutionary biologists have you studied? That is not a rhetorical question by the way.

  Nobody can examine the evidence and still reject evolution unless they are biased by religious superstition.

  This is just as convincing as someone saying:"It is beyond sensible debate that the Bible is true and God is real. Only people who are ignorant or biased hold otherwise."

  No it isn't. I know a great deal about the bible and the more you study it the more it's flaws and contradictions become apparent. I am speaking as somebody who knows both sides of the argument in detail. So far you only know one side.

  It would be good if you could settle on one important subject and let's examine it in some detail. You choose.
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  dabster

  If by " Is that it?", cofty, you are asking is that all I have by way of reply to your response to my original post, the answer (do I really need to spell this out?) is no. This clearly wasn't a response to those comments at all. It had to do with your advice to im_free that he read Ehrman and was by a scholar who may well know one or two things you don't. You did mention wanting to know the truth, something I thought revealed humility and teachableness ion your part and offered a suggestion. I think it good advice, the conventions of discussion notwithstanding. But if, as now appears to be the case, your mind is closed, no amount of discussion will change anything, though it may help others.

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  I'd advise anyone with any doubts about demonisation to read another academic, Charles Kraft, on that matter if it didn't contravene the rules.

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  I can't get away from the feeling that some agnostics or atheists here are at least as blinkered as they accuse the Christians of being. It's not hard to find to find books like In Defence of Miracles: A Comprehensive Case for God's Action in History (Geivett & Habermas, Eds.). Okay, sorry, no more references to books.
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  cofty

  now appears to be the case, your mind is closed, no amount of discussion will change anything

  dabster - You are intellectually dishonest.

  You asked me to read a lengthy 6 part online blog without offering a single word about what it was about the articles that you thought was compelling. I offered to discuss it with you but you were either too lazy to tell us what the main points of the article were or you have not actually read it.

  I was once a well-informed apologist for the inspiration of the bible. I am not going to invest time with your epic link unless there is something original there. My offer to discuss anything about biblical inerrancy still stands but I would insist you defend your position in your own words. Copy-paste and YouTube vidoes are not the same thing as discussion.

  Your accusation that I am closed minded is a dishonest tactic to avoid a discussion you would rather avoid. Typical.
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  Apognophos

  dabster, maybe you can answer my question from before:

  If you saw somebody moaning and drooling with their eyes back in their head, how you would tell if they were (a) demon-possessed, (b) on a drug trip, or (c) having a seizure?
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  cofty

  advise anyone with any doubts about demonisation to read another academic, Charles Kraft - dabster

  Is this the Charles Kraft who has made his money selling books to convince gullible people that all their problems are caused by demons? Which they can defeat with is further help of course. And you think this amounts to evidence because......

  Have you any idea about the amount of emotional and physical abuse that has been caused by the wicked delusions of men like Kraft?

  Little girls in Africa being accused of demon possession and put through appalling ordeals by deluded and wicked parents and preachers. Shame on you for promoting such wickedness.

  Okay, sorry, no more references to books.

  Refer to as many books as you wish but it should be by way of further reading. Your first task is to present compelling evidence and reason. You still have all your work ahead of you.
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  Apognophos

  All books are not equal, dabster. You can't counter cofty's recommended books about science by telling him to read books full of anecdotes.
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  cofty

  I can't get away from the feeling that some agnostics or atheists here are at least as blinkered as they accuse the Christians of being - dabster

  I was a born-again christian for 9 years and for some of that time preached at a conservative evangelical church. I could not begin to list the books, systematic theologies and commentaries I studied during that time.

  I know what you know and perhaps much more. How much do you know about the case against theism? Are you prepared to expose yourself to the very best arguments and evidence against your worldview.

  I have been there and done that. I am still open to any evidence that I have not encountered yet. I am hoping you have something special to share.
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  galaxie

  Hi cofty;...I take my hat off to you sir, although I wonder on a personal note how you reconcile your many years as a theist and how this has affected your life coming to your stanpoint now.

  For myself I was a believer but in terms of my life so far only for a relatively short time until my early 20s when I can say I was definately free of belief in god.

  I experienced some emotional trauma in coming to terms with the fact that I had wasted so many years which to be brief could have been more beneficial / productive, so for yourself to have spent so many more years and may I say in a more comprehensive capacity must have impacted on you quite considerably.

  Anyway as I say I take my hat off to you.

  Best wishes.
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  cofty

  Thanks galaxie - It is doubly tragic when somebody leaves one cult only to spend more years in a different one called christianity.

  I hope I have helped a few avoid making a similar mistake. This is why I tend to be robust with posters like dabster who try to recruit for Jesus. I am glad they are here but they need to understand they won't get a free shot at evangelising.
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  dabster

  cofty, it's hard to identify the "something original", "something special". Witherington is no slouch. You seem to have an enquiring mind; what he has written might appeal, I thought. No need though. Other than that, the bluster, huffing, puffing, brow-beating and haranguing is tiresome. Should this approach encourage me to follow your advice? Look, I might bow out at this point and dwell on the sorts of things you've raised over a longer period in my more contemplative moments. I have a business to run and a family to care for. Now, if any of this amounts to intellectual dishonesty it's something we will have to live with.
  
  At the same time I wonder about your question, " Is this the Charles Kraft who has made his money selling books to convince gullible people that all their problems are caused by demons?" All their problems? And am I promoting the subjecting of little girls to appalling ordeals? Who's being dishonest now?
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  Apogno, which anecodotes in, say, the Geivett & Habermas book did you have in mind?

  Not sure what you're hoping for with, "If you saw somebody moaning and drooling with their eyes back in their head, how you would tell if they were (a) demon-possessed, (b) on a drug trip, or (c) having a seizure?", but I certainly wouldn't perform an exorcism. I'd call an ambulance.