by im_free 99 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
am I promoting the subjecting of little girls to appalling ordeals?
By promoting the dangerous ravings of Kraft you are contributing to a culture of abuse that exists in many churches that take his superstitions seriously.
Have you seen the way some African churches physically and emotionally abuse children whom they accuse of demon possession? It is medieval. They get their inspiration from the likes of Charles Kraft.
dabster, I admit that I haven't read any books about demon possession. I don't expect to gain anything from them because anecdotes are not convincing to me. They were when I was 12, but eventually I started thinking critically. The point of my question was that "demonized" behavior can be explained without recourse to the supernatural. If you want to share something from a book, some case which you think is more convincing than a mere anecdote, I'll listen, but I'm not going out of my way to read a book that I have such low expectations for.
There are none so blind as those who will not see.
Those who use the white stick of religion , theism, evangelical deluded self comfort are indeed blind to rational evidential thinking.
All strengh to those who combat such supernatural non...sense.
Cofty , sorry to be a pain but my question about Job seems to have gotten lost in the cut and thrust of debate ! I asked why you said that parts of Job were later additions .
Jan
Hi Jan.
It is generally agreed that the book of Job is fragmenatary. The literary and linguistic styles vary. The intro about Satan and god is one part. The excellent poetry where Job challenges ancient theodicy is another, Elihu's pious speech is different again.
Not all scholars agree so you can take your pick who you agree with. In it's current form it makes no sense.
1 - Job pleads that he has done no wrong and does not deserve his suffering
2 - His friends insist he must have secret sins
3 - Job declares he does not and wants to see god face to face to plead his case
Up to this point it is a briliant piece of literature
4 - God shows up and says "shut up you puny little worm, how dare you question me"
5 - Job declares god's answer to be wonderful.
Really!
Of course there are plenty scholars who are willing to ignore or explain away the differences in style and unless a new ancient manuscript shows up we will never know.
Cofty , thank you for your reply , and for your honesty in the last post . AT least in that post you do say that the argument for parts of Job being later additions are just that - arguments , not facts as you seemed to assert in your first mention of the subject . If it was not for the fact that I have done some digging into this and knew that their are other OPINIONS on the subject I may have taken your statements as proven facts .
I reiterate to anyone on the site just because someone says something as if it were a FACT please check for yourself . So many times I have found this out- that people will make statements as if with authority and it is easy to accept that . To be fair I will say again check anything stated from anyone in this way , we all are human and bring our own feelings into debates .
Jan
But remember not all opinions are the same. For example in this thread Charles Kraft was mentioned as somebody who has different opinion than Bart Ehrman; on New Testament. Kraft is a linguist, Ehrman on the other hand is one of the leading NT scholars and he studied under Bruce f*****g Metzger!
That's why a good education is critical. Otherwise its all opinions to you.
Good point Master_bob and welcome to JWN
Jan if I am making a point that is central to the topic I will always try to argue it carefully with evidence. If this was a thread about Job I would have been more precise.
If it is a trivial side-issue that is irrelevant to the topic I don't feel the need to be so rigorous but I'm always happy to add details if asked.
That seems like a reasonable approach to me.
jhine and Master_Bob
Read the fine parsing between the learned doctors of faith who make distinctions between inerrancy and infallibillity! Do THEY want to stay in tight with the orthodox church.
What the HELL! Getting an education is not the death knell to opinion-based religious views.
IT'S ALL OPINIONS if you are talking about what to do about any facts concerning "inspired" writing.
Chales Kraft is educated--he has some non-mainstream views of christian life.
Bruce Metzger does believe in the incarnation and resurrection of Jesus inspite of his scholarship which showed the errors in Christian texts.
A student of his, (as I understand) Bart Erhman, does NOT believe that Jesus was God-in-the-flesh OR resurrected on a third day.
Erhman's opinion is that there was a historical Jesus, yet states that he and many other scholars feel that "Jesus did not spend his ministry declaring himself to be divine"
Cofty's opinion is that Jesus was an ego-maniac who misled people.
I believe something else.
At some point we all form some opinion or other once we are even EXPOSED to this material.
No one on this board can escape forming an opinion--EVEN IF WE ARE WELL EDUCATED.
(It is just that some of us have to believe that dinosaurs lived with humans to hold certain opinions--and THAT is an opinion that is hard to respect.)
so what do I mean?
jhine, Opinion. Wha if the Book of Job is served up as "inerrant/infallible"--these words do not matter. There is no imprimatur that makes those pronouncements true--whatever "true" means.
It wears me out to chase down the theological mish-mash and fine points---Can you imagine evn a DIVINE Jesus pushing this BS on working people?
I can not.
Let's get together and sing and dance. to hell with the rest. And if Jesus said some good things? DO THEM. and teach them. Does it matter if he was divine?
In my opinion , NO.
humbled , I think that you make my point for me , we all bring our opinions to the table sometimes , but please make it clear that what you are presenting is an opinion .
I did not want to bring this to a theist versus atheist level as such , but many atheists use the inerrancy of the Bible as reason to not believe , their choice to do that . I just ask that anyone who makes any statement as fact first please check that it is proven as fact and then if not make it clear that it is the opinion of some and not others . Anything else is intellectual dishonesty .
I do stress that this should apply to everyone whatever your platform .
Jan
