Kocept: you are misinformed about the policy the elders has to follow.. If you where an elder than you should now that the elders had recently Schools(2013-2014) like da furious told in a recent post, where the policy about how to handle sexual abuse was discussed, and changes like where mandatary report is required the elders must report it to the authorities.. and these changes you can not find in the sheperd book.. if you like to now the policy of the Jw, and a lot of letters concerning this issue, then I reccomend you all to thirdwitness.com.. and You don't have to believe me, but believing those who are insisting on that two witness rule, ate not informed very well, and I want to see the outcoming of those trials.. Never cry victory before you have won a case..
Consider the "outcome" when elders apply the two-witness "rule"
by AndersonsInfo 105 Replies latest watchtower child-abuse
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konceptual99
Enzo,
I am fully aware that where the law stipulates mandatory reporting then the elders do so however where there is not mandatory reporting then the elders still follow the original instructions. There is no directive for ALL cases to reported REGARDLESS of the local laws. There is no directive to involve the authorities in first instance and consider judicial action as of secondary import.
I am not claiming that elders are deliberately secretive. I am not claiming people are prevented from contacting the authorities. I also don't think that the elders ignore the safety of child. What happens is that elders defer to Bethel and follow the ensuing instructions closely. If Bethel do not tell them to report it and the family do not ask if they can report it then it does not get reported. Many elders when faced with a situation like this do not operate with any common sense or with some autonomy. They default to robot mode. I accept that it makes sense for the elders to speak with Bethel and get direction. What I do not accept is that the process is not consistent and is open to failures simply because it's a lottery as to if the victim gets help from elders with some brains and vision, or ones that do nothing unless Bethel have given them explicit instruction.
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Enzo
Konceptual: Thank you for your expressing your opinion: I want to point something out: There can be a situation that a child that has been molested, went with their parents go the police, or other services, BEFORE going to the elders and tell them what happened.. In such cases they have done the right thing, because the safety, and protection of the child is the most important thing at that moment.. This is the personal decision the parents, can make, and the local branch have no autority in these personal matters., and will not take action, against these parents...The call at the Branch is to inform them, they will give you advice how to handly in such cases with respect with the local laws, and if neccesary they could get help from elders with brains, who has experience in handle such cases...this is the interpretation here in Europe about this policy of sexual abuse of minors.. But there is a difference between internal procedures thus a Congregational matter, and going to the local authorithies that can never be discussed, and is the most important thing for the savety, and the protection of the victim against the abuser..
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cofty
I read your website enzo...
W hy not just let the authorities handle child molestation cases since elders have no training in this field? Elders know nothing about collecting evidence or sampling DNA. They are not qualified to investigate child abuse. That is what many opposers of Jehovah's Witnesses have to say.
You are a dangerous idiot.
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Balaamsass2
YES....................13.5 Mil!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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konceptual99
Hi Enzo,
Am I not making my point clearly?
I have never suggested that parents cannot go to the authorities at any point, before or after informing the elders. I have never suggested that any action will be taken against any that do. I have never suggested that ones are actively prevented from doing so. I have made it clear that I understand that elders are instructed to let parents know they have every right to go to the authorities.
It is clear that where mandatory reporting is required then the elders are under instruction to follow the law. However this still represents the vast minority of jurisdictions where Witnesses are present. The fact is that in the majority of areas there is no obligation for the elders to report anything. Of course parents still can but the process allows for a situation to develop where the authorities are not involved because both Witness parents and elders may act in a way where loyalty to the organisation clouds independant thinking on a matter. This is a cultural, not procedural, issue.
The parents may be misguided and think that they should not involve the authorities and unless the elders tell them they can, indeed should do so, then it never happens.
This is what has happened time and time again. My hope is that it would happen less now in some areas of the West since I think there is less automatic deferrence to the society on matters like this but it's not true of all poeple and certainly not true in all areas. In parts of Africa, for example, this whole subject carries great cultural shame and it's not dealt with correctly in society as a whole - what do you think happens in those places?
A simple sentence on JW.org could clear this whole subject up. Under the heading "Our Child Protection Policy" it should say "In the event of any accussation or evidence of child abuse being made to the elders then they will (a) ensure the physical safety of the child and (b) immediately inform the appropriate law enforcement and social care authorities.
Despite the plethora of paperwork available on the site you mentioned, the evidence presented in numerous court cases of abuse amongst Witnesses testifies to the fact that the procedures and policies leave the door wide open for mismanagement.
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Enzo
Cotty: It is not my website.. But it is easier to insult, and judge, than using your thinking abilities, in defending your opinion isn't it? who is then the real idiot here? I think you now the answer by yourself..
Konceptual: In every organisation there can be a mismanagement, this is not the first time it happens.. in the Conti Case for example they demonstrate indeed that there was a mismanagement in the policy, but in the verdict it was stated that for 30% the WT was responsible, the rest 70% was the sexual abuser who caused the great damage..But the last word of this trial is not said..I will wait and see.. Thus insisting on the fact that WT, is totally Responsible for having a bad policy, and insisting on the two witness rule, you, and a lot of you can do that, but the outcome of trials are speaking for themselves..
It is so sad to see that if you are giving your opinion here based on a objective and neutral way, you are attacked, you are an idiot, and so on.. This says a lot to me.. I have decided to stop posting comments here.. I thougt everyone was accepted here, but from my experience If you are a divergent here, you Are criticized..and in reality not welcom here on JW net.. I hope to all a fine journey in your lives, and I hope you will find peace in your hearts..
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konceptual99
Hi Enzo,
Of course mismanagement can happen anywhere. The problem for the WTS is that the risk of mis-management is higher IMHO due to the way the policy is presented and cultural issues within the organisation that tend to defer up the heirarchy. You are right that the primary focus and blame should be on the abuser and that it is unfair to assume that the WTS should take full responsilbity for the actions of some.
On the other hand, I have seen how elders bodies act first hand over and over again. The repeated incompetence in how matters far less serious are handled reinforces the fact these are untrained men who often don't think through the consequences of what they are instructed to do. The obvious way forward however is to be 100% clear and publicly transparent on how these cases should be handled, along with clear direction that ensures the relevant authorities are involved as quickly as possible.
Finally, please don't feel you should leave the discussion - if someone is challenging you then have the courage of your convictions and justify your opinion with logic and reason.
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Is there a "like" button? Thanks Barbara.
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Emery
Enzo, you lost me at thirdwitness.com
Seriously, that guy is a fraud, please don't read his fallacious logic or his ridiculous reasonings. Why? Because I too use to agree with the guy before I woke up to his dishonest arguments. Please, just do yourself a favor and stop letting other people argue for you. Examine the evidence and look up all the references with an open mind.