by QUANTUM 109 Replies latest jw friends
Here's the best one: In the Book of Moron.........I mean "Mormom", they teach that God Himself was at one time a man, and that it's possible for all men today to become God!!!
Anyway, it doesn't matter, you're not going to make any converts here.......besides, this is a board to discuss matters related to the JWs, NOT Mormons.........if you want to argue with anyone about your religious beliefs, why not go to an ex-Mormon site? There's plenty around :-)
QUANTUM,
Why is your cult so ignorant?
answer: Joseph Smith was ignorant.
Most of us here have been where you are now. Decieved by some half-baked fanaticism which we are now recovering from.
There's dozens of websites that expose the mormons and watchtower for what they really are, I suggest you investigate them. By the way, it's no coincidence that both cults were founded in the 1800s when education among the general population was minimal at best. It's much easier to prey on ignorant people who are susceptable to such foolishness.
Edited by - cyrano on 11 July 2002 21:2:30
:: puts on Quantum shoes ::
Why oh why do you all mock me??? I mean, I know I've mocked you and demeaned you all...not to mention LIE and DENY that this was mormonism. . .
But if you really really want to be saved, and know that "the truth is out there, agent Skully"....FOLLOW THIS LINK:
http://hca.gilead.org.il/
Here is my undisputable arguement:
you need to lean a little more about the bible...only about 20% of people, places and events can be varified from
history,and archaology........you would think that with several million hebrews trampsing around the Sainai desert
that other peoples would be aware of them and make mention of them....no such thing has been found. Thousands
of things can be mentioned regarding what is not said about the Bible. What is said is the important thing as is the
case with The Books Of Hans Christen Anderson.
D8TA
My dear nancee park:
I can't think of a church which does not condemn the followers of religions not theirs to destruction or hell. The LDS church is alone in teaching everyone is loved by the same GOD who is our Heavenly Father. Everyone will receive salvation unless you just plain don't want it. Why this incredible ridiculing of a faith that gurantees the hopeless not only hope but assurances.
In the BOM it says that Christ would be born in Jerusalem. This was one of those things the church was often ridiculed for. Thats why it was so nice that when archeologists discovered ancient writings ( which can be produced) that during the time of Lehi (600 bce) the area around the principle city of Jerusalem was called Jerusalem. just as often times we refer to portland as where we live even though we live in a smaller city next to portland.
The Temple is not a secret place but sacred...anyone is admitted who willingly abides by the doctrines of the church.
Again the adding to the book argument has become a tiring issue...this is one of those worn out things which never go away no matter how many times it is explained to the complete mental vaccuums.The book of revelation was not in the bible we have today. It was even written before some of the new testament books. It was talking about itself when it makes the statement of adding to it. It says the same thing in the book of deuteronomy. if we went along those lines we can do away with half of the old testament and all of the new.
QUANTUM...THE ONE WHO KNOWS
d8ta......this is a serious discussion ...if you want to talk about fair tails and comic books go start your own thread...see if anyone wants to talk to you!
QUANTUM A RIGHTEOUS JUDGE!!!
Troll is more like it...
Sincerely,
District Overbeer
Quantum old chap, you are wrong. All of your evidence seems to be TOLs. Tired Old Lies. Do not abuse these good people!
"They ask for bread, and ye feed them on stones!"
Shame on you!
The following prophecies made by Joseph Smith have not been fulfilled in over 150 years. They are given in approximate chronological order, except for the many Missouri prophecies, which are grouped together.
PEACE AND KNOWLEDGE: Sept 21, 1823. Joseph Smith says in the Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith 2:40, that Moroni told him that Isaiah 11 was "about to be fulfilled." Isaiah 11:6-11 prophesies that the wolf and the lamb, the calf and the lion, etc. shall dwell in peace together, and that nothing will "hurt or destroy," and that the earth shall be "full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea."
FULFILLMENT: None of this has yet come to pass.
SALE OF BOOK OF MORMON COPYRIGHT: Winter 1829-1830. Comp Hist 1:165 Joseph had a revelation that Hiram Page and Oliver Cowdery were to go to Toronto to sell the copyright of the Book of Mormon to raise money.
FULFILLMENT: They went, according to the revelation, but were completely unsuccessful. Joseph Smith "inquired of God" and was told that some "revelations" are not from God. David Whitmer reports this incident in his book An Address To All Believers In Christ , Richmond, 1887, photo reprinting by Utah Lighthouse Ministry, pp 30-31. (See the comment above on the test of a true prophecy.)
PRAYERS ANSWERED: September 1830. D&C 29:6. Jesus promises the Saints that "Whatsoever ye shall ask in faith... ye shall receive." (see also D&C 132:40) Joseph Smith believed firmly in this promise (see Chron JS Mar 10, 1844)
FULFILLMENT: The prayers of the faithful Mormons, especially during the periods of conflict in Kirtland, Missouri, and Nauvoo undoubtedly included many requests for divine aid, victory over their enemies, and peace in their lands. Surely they asked for these things. But instead they were driven out and found no peace. This prophecy is probably failing thousands of times a day, as faithful Mormons pray. (This prophecy is just a repetition of Jesus' promise at Matt 21:22, Mark 11:24, John 14:13-14, 15:7, 16:23, and 1 John 3:22.)
SAINTS GATHERED IN ONE PLACE: September 1830. D&C 29:8 God has decreed that the elect shall be gathered into one place "against the day when tribulation and desolation are sent forth upon the wicked."
FULFILLMENT: The "one place" continued to change as the Mormons were driven from one temporary refuge to the next. After arriving in Utah, the Mormons viewed that as the gathering place. But the modern church apparently no longer believes in this gathering, since it encourages new converts to remain in their homelands. Tribulation and desolation have not been sent forth upon the wicked.
WICKED WILL BURN, ALL PROPHECIES FULFILLED: September 1830. D&C 29:9-11. "For the hour is nigh and the day soon at hand" when the wicked will burn, all prophecies will be fulfilled, and Jesus will return for a thousand years.
FULFILLMENT: This is another prophecy such as Ezekiel 12:27-28 referred to: if the hour were nigh and the day soon at hand, this surely would have been fulfilled within 160 years. By no means have all prophecies been fulfilled, and many cannot now be fulfilled.
ALL NATIONS SHALL BOW: March 1831. D&C 49:9-10. The nations of the earth shall bow to the Mormon gospel or they "shall come down" and "shall be laid low of power."
FULFILLMENT: None of the nations of the earth have accepted the Mormon gospel or "bowed" to it, yet none have been "laid low" because of it.
Joseph Smith made a number of prophecies regarding Missouri as the location of Zion and the gathering place and refuge for the saints. Since they all have the same general meaning and none of them have been fulfilled, they are dealt with together here.
March 7, 1831. D&C 45:64-74. Saints are to gather riches and purchase an inheritance to be called New Jerusalem, also called Zion, a place of refuge and safety, where the wicked will not come, and against which the wicked will refuse to battle. The righteous will come from all nations and sing songs of everlasting joy. The wicked will fear and stand afar off and tremble, and "all nations shall be afraid."
July 1831. D&C 57:1-3 Missouri is named as the land consecrated for the gathering of the Saints and the place for the City of Zion and the building of a temple at Independence. It will be purchased by the saints "for an ever-lasting inheritance."
August 13, 1831. D&C 62:1, 6. The faithful will be preserved and rejoice in Missouri. "I, the Lord, promise the faithful and cannot lie."
Sept 22-23, 1832. D&C 84:2-5, 31 Zion will be built with its temple at Independence, "in this generation". This generation shall not all pass away until the temple will be built upon the spot. Orson Pratt in 1870 reiterated the prophecy (JD 9:71, 10:344, 13:362) and insisted that it will come to pass within the generation living in 1832.
Jan 4, 1833. HC 1:315-316. Joseph Smith says "by the authority of Jesus Christ" that "not many years shall pass away" before the wicked "of this generation" will be swept from off the face of the land and the Lost Ten Tribes will be gathered to Missouri, and that "there are those now living upon the earth whose eyes shall not be closed in death until they see all these things, which I have spoken, fulfilled."
Aug 2, 1833. D&C 97:18-20. Promise that if the saints are obedient the City of Zion (in Missouri) will prosper and become glorious, great and terrible, honored by the nations of the earth. Zion cannot fall or be moved out of its place.
FULFILLMENT: Mormons were driven out of Independence and from all of their settlements in Missouri in 1839. The temple lot is not owned by the Mormon church. No one living in the generation when the prophecy was made is still alive. The wicked of that generation were no more "swept from off the face of the land" than were their contemporary Mormons. The Lost Ten Tribes have not been gathered to Missouri. Nothing in all these prophecies has been fulfilled, even though the majority of the saints steadfastly followed Joseph Smith and were faithful.
Oct 12, 1833. D&C 100:13-15 Zion (Missouri) will be chastened "for a little season" but then "redeemed."
Dec 10, 1833. HC 1:455. Joseph Smith tells the saints that they should retain their lands in Missouri and seek legal redress against their enemies. If they should not obtain it, God will avenge them with "ten thousand of his Saints" and all their adversaries would be destroyed.
FULFILLMENT: The Mormons lost all their lands in Missouri; they did seek legal redress but were unsuccessful; their enemies were not destroyed; their wrongs were not avenged; the Mormons were driven out of Missouri.
Dec 16, 1833. D&C 101:17-20 Zion (Missouri) shall not be moved out of its place; the Saints will receive their inheritance there, and there is no other place than Missouri appointed by God for the gathering of the Saints.
Feb 24, 1834. D&C 103:5-7 If the Saints will hearken to the counsel of the Lord, "they shall, for I have decreed it, begin to prevail against mine enemies from this very hour... and... they shall never cease to prevail until the kingdoms of the world are subdued under my feet, and the earth is given unto the saints, to possess it forever and ever." Verse 15: "The redemption of Zion must needs come by power;" and God will raise up a man like Moses, namely Joseph Smith, who will enable them to "possess the goodly land" (v. 20). Joseph Smith is to organize Zion's Camp (a Mormon army) and relieve the distress of the Saints in Missouri. Verse 36: "All victory and glory is brought to pass unto you through your diligence, faithfulness and prayers of faith."
Spring 1834. Joseph Smith prophesies to the members of Zion's Camp that "within three years they should march to Jackson County and there should not be a dog to open his mouth against them." Reed Peck Manuscript p. 3 [cited in Tanner, The Mormon Kingdom 1:4]
FULFILLMENT: Zion's Camp was organized but utterly failed and it disbanded in July. Cholera decimated them and the campaign did not restore the saints to their homes. They did not return as Zion's Camp. The Mormons continued to encounter fierce opposition. The Mormons never prevailed against their enemies. (Milton R. Hunter, The Gospel through the Ages, p. 282, "Reed Peck Manuscript" p. 3; HC 3:xxxix [cited in Tanner, The Mormon Kingdom 1:4].
June 22, 1834. D&C 105:13-15. The Lord says regarding Missouri: "I will fight your battles... the destroyer I have sent forth to destroy and lay waste mine enemies; and not many years hence they shall not be left to pollute mine heritage, and to blaspheme my name upon the lands which I have consecrated for the gathering together of my saints."
FULFILLMENT: The Missouri opponents of the Mormons were not destroyed, but have remained in Missouri (and "polluted" it?) The Mormons were driven out of Missouri within five years.
Aug 16, 1834. HC 2:145. Joseph Smith says that the Spirit of the Lord tells him that the Saints should be ready to move into Jackson County, Missouri, on September 11, 1836, "which is the appointed time for the redemption of Zion."
FULFILLMENT: If Zion was redeemed in 1836, it was unredeemed in 1839, when the Mormons abandoned Missouri.
FAR WEST TEMPLE: April 26, 1838. D&C 115. Revelation concerning the city of Far West, Missouri, and the building of a temple there. God commands the temple to be built; the church will be gathered to Zion (Missouri), which will be "for a defense, and for a refuge from the storm." Work on the temple is to commence in the summer of 1838, with construction to begin April 26, 1839, with work to continue "diligently until it shall be finished, from the corner stone thereof unto the top thereof, until there shall not anything remain that is not finished." (v. 12) Verse 17: "I say unto you, it is my will that the city of Far West should be built up speedily by the gathering of my saints."
FULFILLMENT: The temple cornerstone was laid, but no more work was ever done and the temple is still not completed. Far West was abandoned by the Mormons soon after this revelation. It would appear that the building of the Far West temple was not the work of God, since God's work cannot be frustrated (see D&C 3:3).
LIBERTY JAIL PROPHECIES: March 20, 1839. D&C 121. This is "Prayer and Prophecies" from Joseph Smith while he was a prisoner in the jail at Liberty, Missouri. It contains several prophecies:
FULFILLMENT: None of these prophecies came to pass. Joseph Smith's enemies were not destroyed "by the sword;" rather, the Mormons were successfully driven out of Missouri. His friends did charge him with transgressions within a few years, and those charges (in The Nauvoo Expositor) resulted directly in his arrest and destruction, as his enemies wished. God did not "change the times and seasons," whatever that may mean. In general, the enemies of the Mormons achieved their goal of driving the Mormons out and destroying Joseph Smith. Their posterity was not destroyed, but survived. At least, there is no record of the anti-Mormon Missourians being swept away. And what knowledge has been "poured down from heaven" upon the Mormons since 1839?
(One might wonder why Smith spent so long in prison; according to the Book of Mormon , Mormon 8:24, faith can make prison walls tumble.)
If Mormonism itself is not the "one true religion" as it claims to be, then that claim, of course is not true, and is a lie. If Joseph Smith did not really see angels, and if he did not really translate the Book of Mormon with divine help, then those claims are lies.
But the purpose of this article is not to deal with those broad issues, since the amount of evidence that would be required to demonstrate the falsity of those claims (and the other broad claims of Mormonism) is more than can be dealt with in a small space. Rather, I will present here instances where Mormon leaders and the Mormon church can be easily and clearly proven to have lied intentionally in order to deceive, in the service of their religion.
Lying, I will show, although piously condemned by Mormon scriptures and in sermons by Mormon leaders, has been used by the church and its leaders from the very beginning to the present day. Such use of falsehood is completely incongruous with its claims of being led by God in righteousness, as the source of truth. Would God (or God's messengers) need to lie? Lying, "is not of God."
D&C 50:17-18
17 Verily I say unto you, he that is ordained of me and sent forth to preach the word of truth by the Comforter, in the Spirit of truth, doth he preach it by the Spirit of truth or some other way?
18 And if it be by some other way it is not of God.
D&C 63:17
17 Wherefore, I, the Lord, have said that the fearful, and the unbelieving, and all liars, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie, and the whoremonger, and the sorcerer, shall have their part in that lake which burneth with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.
2 Nephi 9:34
34 Wo unto the liar, for he shall be thrust down to hell.
2 Nephi 28:8-11
And there shall also be many which shall say: Eat, drink, and be merry; nevertheless, fear God--he will justify in committing a little sin; yea, lie a little ...; there is no harm in this; and do all these things, for tomorrow we die; and if it so be that we are guilty, God will beat us with a few stripes, and at last we shall be saved in the kingdom of God.
9 Yea, and there shall be many which shall teach after this manner, false and vain and foolish doctrines, and shall be puffed up in their hearts, and shall seek deep to hide their counsels from the Lord; and their works shall be in the dark. ...
11 Yea, they have all gone out of the way; they have become corrupted.
"A lie is any communication given to another with the intent to deceive." A lie can be effectively communicated without words ever being spoken. Sometimes a nod of the head or silence can deceive....Mormon Apostle Boyd K. Packer gave a talk to Mormon historians and teachers, titled "The Mantle is Far, Far Greater Than The Intellect," at the Fifth Annual Church Educational System Religious Educators' Symposium, 22 August, 1981, Brigham Young University, Provo, Utah, published later in Brigham Young University Studies , Summer 1981 [emphasis added]:It is a tragedy to be the victim of lies. Being trapped in the snares of dishonesty and misrepresentation does not happen instantaneously. One little lie or dishonest act leads to another until the perpetrator is caught in the web of deceit. ...
A wise person will not allow himself to be victimized by the unscrupulous because of false pride. Oftentimes people are swindled because false pride prevents them from asking questions and seeking additional information. For fear of embarrassment or being thought ignorant, a prospect ofttimes nods his head in the affirmative when he really doesn't understand the glib salesman's line of chatter. "What does that mean?" "What are the risks?" "What are the pitfalls?" "What is the history of the company?" "What references do you have?" are questions worthy of pursuit. ....If prudent decisions cannot be reached on the basis of one's own expertise, advice should be sought from knowledgeable and trusted counselors. Offers that cannot wait or stand review are not worthy.
[My comment: Although Ashton is referring here to unscrupulous salesmen and promoters of business schemes, the advice would also be excellent for those who are investigating Mormonism, and listening to the deceptive pitch and pressure of the Mormon missionaries.]... People of integrity will neither foster, nourish, embrace, nor share the lie.
There is no such thing as an accurate, objective history of the Church without consideration of the spiritual powers that attend this work....Packer cautioned his listeners about how they should present the history of the church:Church history can he so interesting and so inspiring as to be a very powerful tool indeed for building faith. If not properly written or properly taught, it may be a faith destroyer.
If we who research, write, and teach the history of the Church ignore the spiritual on the pretext that the world may not understand it, our work will not be objective. And if, for the same reason, we keep it quite secular, we will produce a history that is not accurate and not scholarly
There is a temptation for the writer or the teacher of Church history to want to tell everything, whether it is worthy or faith promoting or not.Packer had still another cautionary warning:Some things that are true are not very useful.
Some time ago a historian gave a lecture to an audience of college students on one of the past Presidents of the Church. It seemed to be his purpose to show that that President was a man subject to the foibles of men. He introduced many so-called facts that put that President in a very unfavorable light, particularly when they were taken out of the context of the historical period in which he lived.
Someone who was not theretofore acquainted with this historical figure (particularly someone not mature) must have come away very negatively affected. Those who were unsteady in their convictions surely must have had their faith weakened or destroyed.
Teaching some things that are true, prematurely or at the wrong time, can invite sorrow and heartbreak instead of the joy intended to accompany learning.
What is true with these two subjects is, if anything, doubly true in the field of religion. The scriptures teach emphatically that we must give milk before meat. The Lord made it very clear that some things are to be taught selectively and some things are to be given only to those who are worthy.
It matters very much not only what we are told but when we are told it. Be careful that you build faith rather than destroy it.
[My Comment: In other words, don't tell the "whole truth" if it would lead anyone to doubt the claims of Mormonism.]
In an effort to be objective, impartial, and scholarly a writer or a teacher may unwittingly be giving equal time to the adversary.Elder Cecil O. Samuelson Jr., a member of the First Quorum of the Seventy seems to disagree with Elder Packer:In the Church we are not neutral. We are one-sided. There is a war going on and we are engaged in it. It is the war between good and evil, and we are belligerents defending the good. We are therefore obliged to give preference to and protect all that is represented in the gospel of Jesus Christ, and we have made covenants to do it.
Those of you who are employed by the Church have a special responsibility to build faith not destroy it. If you do not do that, but in fact accommodate the enemy, who is the destroyer of faith you become in that sense a traitor to the cause you have made covenants to protect....
There are plenty of scholars in the world determined to find all secular truth. There are so few of us, relatively speaking, striving to convey the spiritual truths, who are protecting the Church. We cannot safely be neutral.
[My Comment: In other words, church apologists must do whatever is necessary (it is "war," after all) to make certain that they are not impartial or objective; they must "protect" the image which the church wants to maintain of itself and its history.]There are qualifications to teach or to write the history of this church. If one is lacking in any one of these qualifications, he cannot properly teach the history of the Church. He can recite facts and give a point of view, but he cannot properly teach the history of the Church. [Packer then lists the qualifications: all are questions regarding the loyalty, faith and testimony of the author.]
We don t believe that there is anything in our current history or in our past history that is worrisome, so we are grateful for people to get to know it.Perhaps the distinction is that Packer's statement was made to those who really know Mormon history, whereas Samuelson's was made for more public consumption, to lull the public (both non-Mormon and the average Mormon who only reads the Sunday School manuals) into believing that what the official histories say is in fact accurate.
In the book, The Angel and the Beehive (1994), Armand Mauss discusses the problems that the LDS church faces with its intellectually inquisitive members. As the church attempts to put forth a media-friendly image, it tries to hide its rather unique past. Unfortunately, many young people grow up in the LDS faith and learn only the homogenized version of Mormon history. Those who have intellectual curiousity will inevitably run across discrepancies and many of those will lose faith in a religion that claims to be the "one true church" and yet lies about its own history. He laments that the LDS Church will lose its best and brightest children because of its pursuit of popularity over integrity.
Mormon writer Robert J. Matthews says, in the October 1994 Ensign article entitled "Thou Shalt Not Bear False Witness," that the ninth commandment is a
"strong declaration against ... gross understatements, fabrication, or the willful giving of any explanation not supported by the facts.... Even sharing the truth can have the effect of lying when we tell only half-truths that do not give the full picture. We can also be guilty of bearing false witness and lying if we say nothing, particularly if we allow another to reach a wrong conclusion while we hold back information that would have led to a more accurate perception. In this case it is as though an actual lie were uttered.... Lying and misrepresentation in all of their forms are wrong, no matter how they may be rationalized, and those who silently let these evils pass unchallenged are also doing wrong".
Thus it appears that some Mormon spokesmen are in favor of telling the truth, but others feel that the whole truth is dangerous.
In May 1844, Joseph Smith preached a sermon in Nauvoo:
[William Law] has gone to Carthage and swore that I had told him that I was guilty of adultery. This spiritual wifeism! Why, a man dares not speak or wink, for fear of being accused of this.... A man asked me whether the commandment was given that a man may have seven wives; and now [William Law] has charged me with adultery....I am innocent of all these charges, and you can bear witness of my innocence, for you know me yourselves... What a thing it is for a man to be accused of committing adultery, and having seven wives, when I can only find one. I am the same man, and as innocent as I was fourteen years ago; and I can prove them all perjurers. - (History of the Church 6:410-411)
By May, 1844, Joseph Smith had "married" over thirty women, after secretly instructing them that he had received a revelation from God commanding him to practice "celestial marriage" (polygamy). The revelation now is canonized as scripture in the Doctrine and Covenants , section 132. The marriage ("sealing") ceremonies were performed in secret, with one of Smith's church colleagues officiating. About one-third of the women had legal husbands still living. Most of the women stated later that their relatiionship to the prophet involved sexual intercourse. Since none of these marriages were legal under the civil laws in effect at the time, all these relationships were adulterous. For details, see Todd Compton, In Sacred Loneliness: The Plural Wives of Joseph Smith , Salt Lake City 1998.
Joseph Smith kept almost all his polygamous marriages secret from his legal wife Emma; that is, he deceived her about them. In March 1842 he authorized her to organize the Female Relief Society, with one of the purposes of the organization being to investigate debauchery and to protect women's morals, specifically from men who would try to seduce them.
Among the women present at the organizational meetings of Emma's Society were at least two plural wives of her husband (Louisa Beaman and Agnes Coolbrith Smith), as well as several other women to whom the secret doctrine had been taught. It was not until 1843 that Emma was informed about the doctrine. By that time Joseph had married over twenty women, including women and girls who had been living in the Smith home as boarders or wards (Eliza Snow, Emily Partridge, Elizabeth Partridge). For details, see Mormon Enigma: [Biography of] Emma Hale Smith , by Linda King Newell and Valeen Tippetts Avery, New York, 1984, chapters 7 and 8.
The revelation under authority of which Joseph Smith married these women, clearly requires the consent of the first wife:
...if any man espouse a virgin, and desire to espouse another, and the first give her consent... then is he justified... (D&C 132:61)
Not only did Smith not have Emma's consent, he did not even inform her of most of them.
In the official Mormon periodical Times and Seasons , dated March 15, 1844, (Vol.5, No.6, p.474) Hyrum Smith, Joseph Smith's brother and Assistant President of the church, wrote:
To the brethren of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints, living on China Creek, in Hancock County, Greeting: Whereas brother Richard Hewitt has called on me to-day, to know my views concerning some doctrines that are preached in your place, and states to me that some of your elders say, that a man having a certain priesthood, may have as many wives as he pleases, and that doctrine is taught here: I say unto you that that man teaches false doctrine, for there is no such doctrine taught here; neither is there any such thing practiced here, and any man that is found teaching privately or publicly any such doctrine, is culpable, and will stand a chance to be brought before the High Council, and lose his license and membership also: therefore he had better beware what he is about. [emphasis added]
At the time he wrote this, Hyrum Smith had married at least five wives polygamously, most within the previous year (he was converted to the secret polygamy doctrine in 1843). His polygamous wives were Mercy R. Fielding, Catherine Phillips, Lydia Dibble, Louisa Sanger, a woman named Perry and another woman named Derbot. (listed in D. Michael Quinn, The Mormon Hierarchy: Origins of Power [Vol. 1] , Salt Lake City 1994, pp. 583-584)
In a public debate with Protestant ministers at Boulogne-sur-Mer, France, in 1850, John Taylor (then an apostle, later to become the third president of the church), said:
We are accused here of polygamy, and actions the most indelicate, obscene, and disgusting, such that none but a corrupt and depraved heart could have contrived. These things are too outrageous to admit of belief; therefore... I shall content myself to reading our views of chastity and marriage, from a work published by us, containing some of the articles of our Faith. "Doctrine and Covenants," page 330, .... "we declare that we believe that one man should have one wife, and one woman but one husband." ( Three Nights' Public Discussion... , published by John Taylor, Liverpool 1850, photocopy in Sharon Banister, For Any Latter-day Saint , Fort Worth 1988, p. 289)
At the time of this discussion, John Taylor was married to eleven wives in addition to his first (legal) wife: Elizabeth Kaighin, Jane Ballantyne, Anna Ballantyne, Mary A. Oakley, Mary A. Utley, Mary Ramsbottom, Sarah Thornton, Lydia Dibble (Hyrum Smith's polygamous widow), Ann Hughlings, Sophia Whittaker, and Harriet Whittaker. He had also been married to Mercy R. Fielding Smith (Hyrum Smith's widow), but the marriage had ended in divorce. (listed in D. Michael Quinn, The Mormon Hierarchy: Origins of Power [Vol. 1] , Salt Lake City 1994, p. 597)
Notice that Taylor cited the Mormon scripture Doctrine and Covenants as it was in effect and binding on all Mormons at that time. Thus Taylor (as well as Hyrum Smith and Joseph Smith) was in violation of the official laws of his own church, as well as the civil law. Notice that Taylor describes polygamy as "most indelicate, obscene, and disgusting, such that none but a corrupt and depraved heart could have contrived. ... too outrageous to admit of belief." Surely he could not have been sincere in such an opinion about a doctrine that he himself was practicing, and which he practiced and defended (as soon as it was officially admitted by Brigham Young in 1852) until the end of his life.
One of the most horrible events in Utah history was the wholesale slaughter of an entire company of immigrants passing through Utah in 1857 to California. Brigham Young was territorial governor of Utah at the time. Only one man, John D. Lee, was punished, after lengthy investigations and two long trials. Lee insisted (probably correctly) that he was a scapegoat, a "sacrificial lamb," and certainly not the only guilty Mormon.
Brigham Young's official position on the massacre - a position which was followed by the church for many years - is typified by his remarks in a sermon five years later:
In 1857 it is estimated that eleven thousand troops were ordered here; some seven thousand started for this place, with several thousand hangers on. They came into this Territory when a company of emigrants were traveling on the south route to California. Nearly all of that company were destroyed by the Indians. That unfortunate affair has been laid to the charge of the whites.... but to this day they [the federal authorities] have not touched the matter, for fear the Mormons would be acquitted from the charge of having any hand in it, and our enemies would thus be deprived of a favorite topic to talk about, when urging hostility against us. ( Journal of Discourses 10:109-110, Apr 7, 1862)
It has now been established that the massacre was organized by white Mormons, and that Brigham Young knew this by 1862. See Juanita Brooks, The Mountain Meadows Massacre, Univ. of Oklahoma Press, 1991.
Brooks wrote:
While Brigham Young and George A. Smith, the church authorities chiefly responsible, did not specifically order the massacre, they did preach sermons and set up social conditions which made it possible.....While he did not order the massacre, and would have prevented it if he could, Brigham Young was accessory after the fact, in that he knew what happened, and how and why it happened. Evidence of this is abundant and unmistakable, and from the most impeccable Mormon sources." (p. 219, emphasis added)
John D. Lee, who was the only person to be found guilty of the Massacre, wrote in his Confessions :
General George A. Smith held high rank as a military leader. He was one of the twelve apostles...and as such he was considered by me to be an inspired man. His orders were to me sacred commands, which I considered it my duty to obey, without question or hesitation.....The General told me to tell the Indians that the Mormons were their friends, and that the Americans were their enemies.....that the Indians must get ready and keep ready for war against all of the Americans, and keep friendly with the Mormons and obey what the Mormons told them to do---that this was the will of the Great Spirit; that if the Indians were true to the Mormons and would help them against their enemies, then the Mormons would always keep them from want and sickness and give them guns and ammunition to hunt and kill game with, and would also help the Indians against their enemies when they went into war.....I have always believed, since that day, that General George A. Smith was then visiting Southern Utah to prepare the people for the work of exterminating Captain Fancher's train of emigrants, and I now believe that he was sent for that purpose by the direct command of Brigham Young.
Lee further stated that after the massacre, stake president Isaac Haight told him:
... that I....should go to Salt Lake City and lay the whole matter before Brigham Young.....'You are like a member of Brigham's family, and can talk to him privately and confidentially. I want you to take all of it on yourself that you can, and not expose more of the brethren than you find absolutely necessary. Do this, Brother Lee, as I order you to, and you shall receive a celestial reward for it, and the time will come when all who acted with us will be glad for the part they have taken, for the time is near at hand when the Saints are to enjoy the riches of the earth. And all who deny the faith and doctrines of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints shall be slain---the sword of vengeance shall shed their blood; their wealth shall be given as a spoil to our people.' At that time I believed everything he said, and I fully expected to receive the celestial reward that he promised me. But now I say, Damn all such 'celestial rewards' as I am to get for what I did on that fateful day."
Thus it seems clear that through Apostle George A. Smith and John D. Lee, Young knew very well that Mormons were deeply involved in the Massacre, and that it was not simply a matter of Indians attacking a wagon train.
Gordon B. Hinckley became head of the church in 1995, thus officially holding the titles "president, prophet, seer, revelator and translator" (D&C 107:91-92). Now (2001) in his nineties, he has spent a long life working on behalf of the church, much of it in the church public relations effort. In the years since he became head of the church, his administration has made special effort to present the church to the world in a favorable light. He has traveled all over the world and been interviewed extensively by reporters and television talk-show hosts.
Unfortunately, in his efforts to make the church look good, Hinckley often bends the truth.
Don Lattin (religion editor, interviewing Gordon B. Hinckley, San Francisco Chronicle , April 13, 1997, p 3/Z1)
Q: There are some significant differences in your beliefs [from other Christian churches]. For instance, don't Mormons believe that God was once a man?
Hinckley: I wouldn't say that. There was a little couplet coined, "As man is, God once was. As God is, man may become." Now that's more of a couplet than anything else. That gets into some pretty deep theology that we don't know very much about. [emphasis added]
Gordon B. Hinckley, as quoted in Time Magazine , Aug 4, 1997:
"On whether his church still holds that God the Father was once a man, [Hinckley] sounded uncertain, `I don't know that we teach it. I don't know that we emphasize it... I understand the philosophical background behind it, but I don't know a lot about it, and I don't think others know a lot about it.'" [emphasis added]
A spokesman for Hinckley, when questioned about the accuracy of the Time quotation, asserted that Hinckley's words were taken out of context, and that Hinckley was thus misquoted. The Time reporter, however, has made available the pertinent part of the transcript of his interview with Hinckley. Here is the relevant excerpt from President Hinckley's interview with Time :
Q: Just another related question that comes up is the statements in the King Follett discourse by the Prophet.
Hinckley: Yeah
Q: ... about that, God the Father was once a man as we were. This is something that Christian writers are always addressing. Is this the teaching of the church today, that God the Father was once a man like we are?
Hinckley: I don't know that we teach it. I don't know that we emphasize it. I haven't heard it discussed for a long time in public discourse. I don't know. I don't know all the circumstances under which that statement was made. I understand the philosophical background behind it. But I don't know a lot about it and I don't know that others know a lot about it. [emphasis added]
Joseph Smith ("King Follett Discourse," Journal of Discourses 6:3-4, also in Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 342-345):
"God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted Man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens. That is the great secret... It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God and to know...that he was once a man like us.... Here, then, is eternal life - to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves,... the same as all Gods have done before you..." [emphasis added]
Brigham Young, successor to Joseph Smith (Journal of Discourses 7:333):
"He [God] is our Father - the Father of our spirits, and was once a man in mortal flesh as we are, and is now an exalted being." [emphasis added]
Milton R. Hunter, Mormon apostle and theologian (The Gospel Through the Ages, p 104):
"Mormon prophets have continuously taught the sublime truth that God the Eternal Father was once a mortal man who passed through a school of earth life similar that through which we are now passing. He became God - an exalted being - through obedience to the same eternal Gospel truths that we are given opportunity today to obey." [emphasis added]
Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon apostle and theologian (Mormon Doctrine, 1966 ed p 250):
"...God...is a personal Being, a holy and exalted man..."
Joseph Fielding Smith, Mormon apostle and theologian, later President of the church (Doctrines of Salvation 1:10):
"God is an exalted man. Some people are trouble over the statements of the Prophet Joseph Smith ... that our Father in heaven at one time passed through a life and death and is an exalted man..."
Larry King (whose present wife is Mormon) interviewed Gordon B. Hinckley on his nationally broadcast television show Larry King Live on September 8, 1998. He asked Hinckely about polygamy:
KING: You condemn it [polygamy].
HINCKLEY: I condemn it, yes, as a practice, because I think it is not doctrinal. It is not legal. And this church takes the position that we will abide by the law. We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, magistrates in honoring, obeying and sustaining the law. [emphasis added]
The Doctrine and Covenants , a collection of doctrine and revelations of equal iimportance to the Book of Mormon , still contains Section 132, as it has for about 150 years. This is the famous revelation on plural marriage. Pertinent passages are [emphasis added]:
1 Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you my servant Joseph, that inasmuch as you have inquired of my hand to know and understand wherein I, the Lord, justified my servants Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as also Moses, David and Solomon, my servants, as touching the principle and doctrine of their having many wives and concubines--
2 Behold, and lo, I am the Lord thy God, and will answer thee as touching this matter.
3 Therefore, prepare thy heart to receive and obey the instructions which I am about to give unto you; for all those who have this law revealed unto them must obey the same.
4 For behold, I reveal unto you a new and an everlasting covenant; and if ye abide not that covenant, then are ye damned; for no one can reject this covenant and be permitted to enter into my glory....
29 Abraham received all things, whatsoever he received, by revelation and commandment, by my word, saith the Lord, and hath entered into his exaltation and sitteth upon his throne.
...
30 Abraham received promises concerning his seed, and of the fruit of his loins-.... both in the world and out of the world should they continue as innumerable as the stars; or, if ye were to count the sand upon the seashore ye could not number them.
31 This promise is yours also, because ye are of Abraham, and the promise was made unto Abraham; and by this law is the continuation of the works of my Father, wherein he glorifieth himself.
32 Go ye, therefore, and do the works of Abraham; enter ye into my law and ye shall be saved.
33 But if ye enter not into my law ye cannot receive the promise of my Father, which he made unto Abraham.
34 God commanded Abraham, and Sarah gave Hagar to Abraham to wife. And why did she do it? Because this was the law; and from Hagar sprang many people. This, therefore, was fulfilling, among other things, the promises.
35 Was Abraham, therefore, under condemnation? Verily I say unto you, Nay; for I, the Lord, commanded it.
...
37 Abraham received concubines, and they bore him children; and it was accounted unto him for righteousness, because they were given unto him, and he abode in my law; as Isaac also and Jacob did none other things than that which they were commanded; and because they did none other things than that which they were commanded, they have entered into their exaltation, according to the promises, and sit upon thrones, and are not angels but are gods.
...
61 And again, as pertaining to the law of the priesthood--if any man espouse a virgin, and desire to espouse another, and the first give her consent, and if he espouse the second, and they are virgins, and have vowed to no other man, then is he justified; he cannot commit adultery for they are given unto him; for he cannot commit adultery with that that belongeth unto him and to no one else.
62 And if he have ten virgins given unto him by this law, he cannot commit adultery, for they belong to him, and they are given unto him; therefore is he justified.
Joseph F. Smith, the sixth president of the church, emphasized the doctrinal necessity of practicing polygamy ("plural marriage"):
Some people have supposed that the doctrine of plural marriage was a sort of superfluity, or non-essential to the salvation of mankind. In other words, some of the Saints have said, and believe that a man with one wife, sealed to him by the authority of the Priesthood for time and eternity, will receive an exaltation as great and glorious, if he is faithful, as he possibly could with more than one. I want here to enter my protest against this idea, for I know that it is false. ... Therefore, whoever has imagined that he could obtain the fullness of the blessings pertaining to this celestial law, by complying with only a portion of its conditions, has deceived himself. He cannot do it. ... I understand the law of celestial marriage to mean that every man in this church, who has the ability to obey and practice it in righteousness and will not, shall be damned, I say I understand it to mean this and nothing less, and I testify in the name of Jesus that it does mean that. ( Journal of Discourses 20:28-31.)
Hinckley would have been correct if he had said that the present church does not actually practice polygamy, even though it is still an official doctrine of the church. But that would have made the church look bad. So he lied.
Actually, a form of polygamy is still practiced by the church under very limited circumstances: if a man and woman are "sealed" together on earth to be husband and wife in eternity, and the wife dies, the man can remarry, and then have his second wife "sealed" to him, so that in heaven he will be a polygamist. For example, Joseph Fielding Smith, who was president of the church from 1970 until his death in 1972, was technically a monogamist. But he was sealed for eternity to three successive wives, each of whom left him a widower. Thus, he is now a polygamist, supposedly living in the Celestial Kingdom with his three wives.
In the same interview with Larry King, Hinckley said the following about the early practice of polygamy:
HINCKLEY: When our people came west they permitted it [polygamy] on a restricted scale.
The Mormons "came west" in 1847, after abandoning their headquarters in Nauvoo, Illinois. Polygamy had been practiced secretly by Joseph Smith since about 1833, when he "married" his first "plural wife," Fanny Alger. Alger is listed by official Mormon sources as Joseph Smith's first plural wife.
It was the rampant but secret practice of polygamy which led some prominent Mormons in Nauvoo, who believed the practice to be false, to publish in 1844 a newspaper (the Nauvoo Expositor ) exposing and denouncing it. Smith's illegal destruction of the newspaper's offices and press led directly to the state of civil war between the Mormons and the non-Mormons, to Smith's arrest and death, and the exodus to Utah.
Thus, Hinckley's implication that it was not practiced until the Mormon arrival in Utah is false.
The King interview continued, discussing polygamy:
KING: You could have a certain amount of...
HINCKLEY: The figures I have are from -- between two percent and five percent of our people were involved in it [polygamy]. It was a very limited practice;...
It was limited to the leaders at first simply because it was a secret doctrine, and only the leaders knew of it. But among the leadership it was not at all a "limited practice": D. Michael Quinn, in his book The Mormon Hierarchy: [Volume 1] Origins of Powers , Appendix 6, gives biographical sketches of all the men who were the leaders of the Mormon church between 1830 and 1847. He lists 51 men of leading importance in the church during that period. Twenty-nice of them were polygamists. Of the other 22 (monogamists) about a dozen either had left the church before the 1840s (when polygamy became widespread among the intimate associates of Smith), or were among those who actively opposed polygamy and apostatized or were excommunicated for that opposition. Thus, a more accurate figure of the number of men who practiced it even before the exodus to Utah is 75% of those in the leadership of the church who actually were aware of the doctrine.
Hinckley also neglects to mention that until 1890, the leaders of the church urged all good Mormons to practice it (see the quotation from Joseph F. Smith above, which is typical of sermons of the day). If it was not practiced by all Mormons, it was not because the church was trying to limit the practice, as Hinckley falsely implies.
In fact, every president of the Mormon church from Joseph Smith was polygamous through Heber J. Grant (who died in 1945, and who gave it up when he was 52 years old). The first monogamous president of the church was George Albert Smith, who succeeded Grant in 1945.
Joseph Smith, authorizing himself to sell liquor:
"Ordinance on the Personal Sale of Liquors. Section 1. Be it ordained by the City Council of Nauvoo, that the Mayor of the city be and is hereby authorized to sell or give spirits of any quantity as he in his wisdom shall judge to be for the health and comfort, or convenience of such travelers or other persons as shall visit his house from time to time.Passed December 12, 1843.JOSEPH SMITH, Mayor. WILLARD RICHARDS, Recorder." (History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 111)
Brother Joseph, enjoying the fruits of the vine and the grains of the field:
"Called at the office and DRANK A GLASS OF WINE with Sister Jenetta Richards, made by her mother in England, and reviewed a portion of the conference minutes. (History of the Church,Vol. 5, p. 380)
We then partook of some refreshments, and OUR HEARTS WERE MADE GLAD WITH THE FRUIT OF THE VINE.
(History of the Church, Vol. 2, page 369)
"Elders Orson Hyde, Luke S. Johnson, and Warren Parrish, then presented the Presidency with three servers of glasses filled with WINE to bless. And it fell to my lot to attend to this duty, which I cheerfully discharged. It was then passed round in order, then the cake in the same order; and suffice it to say, OUR HEARTS WERE MADE GLAD while partaking of the bounty of earth which was presented, until we had taken our fill;..." (History of the Church, Vol. 2, p. 378)
April17.This day THE TWELVE blessed and DRANK A BOTTLE OF WINE at Penworthan, made by Mother Moon FORTY YEARS BEFORE.
(History of the Church, Vol. 4, page 120)
Joseph continues to drink, even while in jail:
Before the jailor came in, his boy brought in some water, and said the guard wanted some WINE. JOSEPH gave Dr. Richards two dollars to give the guard; but the guard said one was enough, and would take no more. The guard immediately sent FOR A BOTTLE OF WINE, pipes, and two small papers of tobacco; and one of the guards brought them into the jail soon after the jailor went out. Dr. Richards uncorked the bottle, AND PRESENTED A GLASS TO JOSEPH, WHO TASTED, AS BROTHER TAYLOR AND THE DOCTOR, and the bottle was then given to the guard, who turned to go out.
(History of the Church, Vol. 6, page 616)
"Sometime after dinner we sent for some WINE. It hasbeen reported by some that this was taken as a sacrament. It was NO SUCH THING; our spirits were generally dull and heavy, and it was sent for to revive us.... I believe we all drank of the WINE, and gave some to one or two of the prison guards."
(John Taylor, in History of the Church, Vol. 7, page 101)
Joseph opens his own bar:
About 1842, a new and larger house was built for us.... Father proceeded to build an extensive addition running out from the south wing toward the east.... At any rate, it seemed spacious then, and a sign was put out giving it the dignified name of 'The Nauvoo Mansion,'... Mother was to be installed as landlady, and soon made a trip to Saint Louis.. When she returned Mother found installed in the keeping - room of the hotelthat is to say, the main room where the guests assembled and where they were received upon arrivalA BAR, with counter, shelves, bottles, glasses, and other paraphernalia customary for a FULLY -EQUIPPED TAVERN BAR, and Porter Rockwell in charge as tender. She was very much surprised and disturbed over this arrangement, but said nothing for a while...she asked me where Father was. I told her he was in the front room... Then she told me to go and tell him she wished to see him. I obeyed, and returned with him to the hall where Mother awaited him. 'Joseph,' she asked, 'What is the meaning of THAT BAR IN THIS HOUSE?'... 'How does it look,' she asked, 'for the spiritual head of a religious body to be keeping a hotel in which is a room fitted out as a LIQUOR-SELLING ESTABLISHMENT?' He reminded her that all taverns had their BARS at which liquor was sold or dispensed..Mother's reply came emphatically clear, though uttered quietly: 'Well, Joseph,... I will take my children and go across to the old house and stay there, for I will not have them raised up under such conditions as this arrangement imposes upon us, nor have them mingle with the kind of men who frequent such a place. You are at liberty to make your choice; EITHER THAT BAR GOES OUT OF THE HOUSE, OR WE WILL!' It did not take Father long to make the choice, for he replied immediately, 'Very well, Emma; I will have it removed at once'and he did"
(Joseph Smith's own son, in The Saints' Herald, Jan. 22, 1935, page 110)
Brigham's Bar
Stills were afterward obtained from emigrants, and the manufacture and sale of alcohol were later controlledby the city councils. The FIRST BAR-ROOM in S. L. City, and the only one for years, was in the Salt Lake House, owned by PRESIDENT YOUNG and Feramorz Little. It was opened for the accommodation of travellers, whose requirements would be supplied by some one, and it was thought by the brethren that they had better control the trade than have outsiders do so. (Hurbert Howe Bancroft, History of Utah, p. 540, footnote 44)
Brigham Young, on the widespread use of coffee, tea, liquor, and tobacco by Mormon bishops.
You go through the wards in the city, and then through the wards in the country, and ask the Bishops'Do you keep the Word of Wisdom?' The reply will be 'YES; NO, NOT EXACTLY.' 'Do you drink tea?' 'No.' 'Coffee?' 'No.' 'Do you drink whisky?' 'No.' 'Well, then, why do you not observe the Word of Wisdom?' 'Well, this TOBACCO, I CANNOT GIVE IT UP.' And in this he sets an example to every man, and to every boy over ten years of age, in his ward, to nibble at and chew tobacco. You go to another ward, and perhaps the Bishop does not chew tobacco, nor drink tea nor coffee, but once in a while he takes A LITTLE SPIRITS, and keeps WHISKEY in his house, in which he will occasionally INDULGE Go to another ward, and perhaps the Bishop does not drink whisky nor chew tobacco, but he 'CANNOT GIVE UP HIS TEA AND COFFEE.' And so it goes through the whole church. Not every Bishop indulges in one or more of these habits, but MOST OF THEM DO. I recollect being at a trial not long since where quite a number of Bishops had been called in as witnesses, but I could not learn that there WAS ONE WHO DID NOT DRINK WHISKEY, and I THINK THAT MOST OF THEM DRANK TEA AND COFFEE. I think that we have SOME BISHOPS in this city who do not chew tobacco, nor drink liquor nor tea nor coffee TO EXCESS.... If a person is weary, worn out, cast down, fainting, or dying, A BRANDY SLING, a little WINE, or a cup of TEA is good to revive them. DO NOT THROW THESE THINGS AWAY, AND SAY THEY MUST NEVER BE USED; they are good to be used with judgment, prudence, and discretion. Ask our BISHOPS IF THEY DRINK TEA EVERY DAY, AND IN MOST CASES THEY WILL TELL YOU THEY DO IF THEY CAN GET IT.
(Journal of Discourses, Vol.12, pp. 402-403)
Brigham Young, on how to chew tobacco in church:
Many of the brethren chew tobacco, and I have advised them to be modest about it. Do not take out a WHOLE PLUG OF TOBACCO IN MEETING BEFORE THE EYES OF THE CONGREGATION, AND CUT OFF A LONG SLICE AND PUT IT IN YOUR MOUTH, to the annoyance of everybody around. Do not glory in this disgraceful practice. If you must use tobacco, put a small portion in your mouth when no person sees you, and be careful that no one sees you chew it. I do not charge you with sin. You have the'Word of Wisdom.' Read it.
Journal of Discourses, Vol. 8, p. 361
REMINDS ME OF JUDGE RUTHERFORD..LOL.
