by meadow77 740 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Herk,
Here is the Cartoon you posted:
Then, I asked the following Question about it:
Herk,Please let us all know WHAT would happen if they found out that Preacher in your Cartoon was Lying?
Then, you said:
As for your question about the cartoon, I never answered it because your question made no sense. I have no idea what you had in mind.
JosephMalik,
Thanks for your reply as always.
I haven't gotten a chance to read all of it yet, but I will soon.
The whole point of having a discussion is getting a lot of different people's thoughts, ideas, and beliefs.
And, if I post incorrect information, then I want people to correct me!
Even if people only think I have posted incorrect info, I still want them to let me know!
The last thing in the Universe that I want to do is post incorrect information about God's Holy Scriptures.
I'm sure that most of us on this Thread are trying to be like the "Beroeans", which is what I try to do.
I just thought these Verses are interesting also:
Luke 22:67: "If You are the Christ, tell us." But He said to them, "If I tell you, you won't believe,
Luke 22:68: and if I ask, you will in no way answer Me or let Me go.
So, they asked Jesus if He was the Christ.
Then Jesus basically said yes by saying the following:
Luke 22:69: From now on, the Son of Man will be seated at the right hand of the power of God."
But, notice, they did not call Jesus a Blasphemer yet!
Look what they ask Jesus next:
Luke 22:70: They all said, "Are You then the Son of God?" He said to them, "You say it, because I am."
Jesus told them that He was the Son of God.
Now is when they accuse Jesus of Blasphemy because He said that He was the Son of God!
Luke 22:71: They said, "Why do we need any more witness? For we ourselves have heard from His own mouth!"
If they were accusing Jesus of Blasphemy because He claimed to be the Christ/Messiah, then why didn't they immediately find Him guilty after Jesus told them He was the Christ? Why did they wait, and ask Jesus specifically, "Are You the Son of God?", and THEN after Jesus says Yes, they accuse Him of Blasphemy?
Edited by - UnDisfellowshipped on 5 December 2002 7:44:45
UnDisfellowshipped,
You are wrong in several of your views about unitarians. By the way, Unitarian with a capital "U" is only one segment of the unitarian community. Most unitarians do not belong to that denomination.
The Word is God, but actually The Word is "a god".
That is a JW teaching, but it isn't the belief of most biblical unitarians.
The Word is not the True God, and yet, the Word is not a False God either.
That is a ridiculous statement, on the face of it. George Washington was also not the True God nor the False God, for example, but so what?
The Word is the Mighty God, but not the Almighty God, but even if the Word is the Almighty God, the Word is not the Supreme Being.
Are you for real? Do you really believe you're being totally sincere with a statement like that? You seem to thrive on deliberately and dishonestly twisting the facts.
The Father commands that all angels WORSHIP the Word.
The "worship" (proskuneo) given to Christ is the same as that which is given to humans. (Hebrews 1:6; Matthew 18:26; Revelation 3:9) C hrist is never given the "worship" (latreuo) that only God receives. (Matthew 4:10)
The Word says that everyone should honor the Word just the same as they honor the Father.
Jesus said, "all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father." That does not mean that the Son is to be honoured EQUALLY as the Father is honoured. You completely disregard the way "even as" is used in other passages. For example, "My own know me, even as the Father knows me and I know the Father." (John 10:14) To be consistent, you would have to say that Christians know Christ no less than the Father does. According to your definition of "even as," Christians know everything about Christ just as much as the infinite mind of the Father knows Christ. You also ignore Jesus' prayer to the Father that his disciples "may be one even as we are." (John 17:11) He also asked "that they may all be one; even as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us." To be "in" God and to be "one" in the Trinitarian sense, Christians would necessarily have to be part of God. But, blindly, Trinitarians insist that being "one" means one thing in John 10 and something else in John 17.
But yet, whenever the Word is worshiped, it's not the same worship that the Father gets (even though the Greek word is the same).
As shown above, this is a deliberate and deceptive lie, nothing less.
Even though it says in Revelation Chapter 5, that the Father and the Word are receiving the exact same praise, honor, and glory, it's still only the Father being worshiped.
"Praise, honor, and glory" are not the same as "worship." Men, especially in the age to come, receive praise, honor and glory, but that does not make them Almighty God. And, of course, you know that here, too, you are deliberately lying and attempting to deceive. We've already discussed Revelation 5 together, but you reject the context in preference to your own personal opinion.
And, if the Word is supposed to be worshiped, that means you are worshiping a created being, which is blatent idolatry, but it's okay, because the Word is a "Special Created Being".
This is another gross distortion of what the Bible says, as shown above. You invented the phrase "Special Created Being," but by using quotation marks and capital letters, you seek deceptively to make it appear that this is unitarian terminology.
The Word was created by the Father, even though John 1:3 says that there has never been one thing that was not created by the Word, so the obvious answer is that the Word created Himself! Now it all makes sense!
Here is another gross distortion of what most biblical unitarians believe. You appear clever in your own mind, but only an outlandish fool would dare to so distort the facts and at the same time think that he is wise.
The Bible says the Word created all things, but He actually only created people.
Most biblical unitarians would deny such a teaching, showing that you have no idea what unitarian beliefs really are.
The Father made a big point of calling the Word "Immanuel" which means "GOD WITH US", but that has no significance.
The angel did not say Jesus would be God with us. He said Jesus would be NAMED "God with us." There is a big difference. Sadly, to that fact you are also totally blind because you feel the need for every little piece of evidence that might vindicate your pagan philosophy.
The Apostle Thomas declared that the Word is The God, but since the Apostle Peter was not the one who said it, it's not true.
This is another example of dishonesty and insincerity, a deliberate effort to distort the true picture of what unitarians in this thread have actually said.
But, that is not true, because the Father actually used the Word to create other things for Him, even though the Word is a creature.
That is a teaching of JWs, but it is not what all unitarians believe, by a long shot.
When the Pharisees accused the Word of Blasphemy, it was because they thought He was lying about being the Christ. It was NOT because they thought He was lying about being God (even though "Blasphemy" is either Speaking Against GOD, or Making yourself EQUAL to GOD).
Here again, you ignore the Bible definition, and invent one of your own.
The Father calls the Word God in Hebrews Chapter 1, but that doesn't mean that the Word is God, just because it doesn't!
Your error here is again due to totally disregarding what the Scriptures say by way of explanation. You don't have to be a unitarian to realize that Jesus was God in the same sense that the kings of Israel were God. Angels were also called Jehovah very often. Using your false logic, each angel would also have to be Almighty God.
Also, the entire Bible is written about a CREATED BEING!
UnDisfellowshipped, pardon me for saying so, but the truth is, you don't know how to be truthful. There's no point in my continuing to go through this ridiculour post. To say such stupid things about unitarians is a clear illustration that you have no love for truth at all. You simply seek to distort, lie, and deceive. The more you write, the more you continue to expose for all to see how dishonest and corrupt Trinitarians really are.
UnDisfellowshipped,
It seems like you're as happy as a little child who found a new toy to play with. But please learn to spell it correctly. The phrase is Latin and contains no capital letters.
I find it hard to believe that you couldn't understand my obvious and simple question about your Cartoon.
You make statements like that only because you have an overly-inflated opinion of your ability to use the English language.
UnDisfellowshipped,
the Cartoon you posted:
As I said, I have NO idea what your question means. If you care to explain it, I might be able to give you an answer.
Edited by - herk on 5 December 2002 8:6:59
UnDisfellowshipped,
That all Jews did always react the same is not suprising. But we are discussing the nature of God literally and looking for absolute proof one way or the other. Incidents such as the one described do not change the overall situation already discussed. Some Jews were highly jealous, some highly protective of their status with the people, some were more knowledgeable than others. We see all such characteristics in them but they still had an obligation to give up all such old ways, nearly all their views and texts in fact and be born again into a Faith radically altered from everything they knew.
I just noticed you post on the Holy Spirit and how you attempt to show it to be a person. This is a good example of trinitarian thinking and is covered adequately in Beyond Trinitarianism. However how do such examples prove that this Holy Spirit is also true God? People can be called Holy Spirit and even an assembly of Christians can be called Holy Spirt and they are in scripture but does this make them true God? Such use of terms does not a true God make. Notice:
Acts 13:2 As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.
This was a person. One of the brothers in Antioch participating in this meeting. No thunder, no voice from the sky, no vision, no nothing like that. Is this brother true God?
When I comes to doctrine, I really do not care what the doctrine is as long as it agrees fully with scripture and is beyond dispute. Show me the error I am making and I will correct it faster than the speed of lightning. And I search carefully for flaws, weakness and strengths in every view found of interest including my own. But I see really bad interpretation of texts within Trinitarian theology and they should be brought to everyones attention so that good information is available to everyone interested in such doctrine We are individually responsible for what we teach and cannot blame someone else for error.
P.S. Your work with silent lambs was very good and I am looking forward to the rest of your research on that subject. I am not trying to say that everything anyone does is suspect because of a disagreement on one point. Keep up the good work.
Joseph
Edited by - JosephMalik on 5 December 2002 9:0:58
Edited by - herk on 5 December 2002 8:44:33
I'll give my TRUE opinion on this subject.......from a biblical perspective considering the fact it is God's word......and personally I have my doubts.
I think both sides of this long debate have GOOD reasons for believing the way they do.
There is much in the scriptures to validify Jesus is God.The letter from Paul to the Colossians, and the gospel of John, prove to be the strong points. He has all the titles God has, and defies what the O.T. says about there is only one savior and there WILL BE NO OTHER.
Herk also makes many fair statements and claims. It is true this doctrine became strong with the church council. However this doctrine should never have been imposed on people to to believe as absolute fact.
My problem with who Jesus is botherd me for a long time. I wanted to know and was mad God didn't make it crystal clear. I thought this to be one area he could have spoken clearly without hidden meaning for the rightous. I believed in the Trinity, then I didn't.....now I doubt his word......what a ride!
I would like to say to J.M., Herk, U.D., S.C. you all work very hard to support your points.....but......If the bible were God's word.....I really think God would love and except all of you that love him whether you believe in the Trinity or not.
Edited by - Gumby on 5 December 2002 8:36:11
