by meadow77 740 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Crazy, you're thinking of "Oneness" or "Modalism" - God in three different roles.
There it is the most basic of descriptions.
One God in three Persons.
Now if you can just show me where this is in the Bible, I would be happy to believe that the Bible says it. I know it says "God is one" but I'm having a lot of trouble finding where it says he is also three.
Edited by - LucidSky on 6 December 2002 17:26:33
Chevy,
Jesus came to Earth for us for a purpose. To give us the new covenant. It was necessary to use some intrigue to get this done. So say Jesus stands in the Temple after the whole money changers Fiasco and says. I am Yahweh I am Jehovah I am here to bring you a new cov.. Aaaaakkk" as he is dragged down and stoned by the onlookers. He had to be careful how he spoke so as to not be killed before the proper time.
Many times he spoke in parables to make it easier for us to understand. Keep in mind Humans are continually refered to as sheep. Is it because we are warm and cute and fuzzy? Nope, Its because sheep are the stupidest animal on the planet. They continually need guided and helped or they can't survive.
I wish he had simply Came down with a roar and in his Glory and showed us exactly what is what, but unfortunately that would take away most of free will and kinda ruin us as his entertainment.
Sean the sheep Baaaaahhh
(keep in mind these are my opinions and as such are not the official views of The Catholic Church, Seasame street, or the local Breadmakers Union local 243)
Lucid Sky,
God is God agreed? 1/3'rd there already
The Holy Spirit is God Whether impersonal force or not still a part of God Right 2/3rds there.
Divinity of Christ, Is Jesus God? That's the big question, John 1:1 was supposed to explain that as clearly as possible, but we as humans Jacked that up with changing languages and interpretations etc. and this thread is what we have left. Study hard and look at all of the appropriate scriptures and make your decision.
Sean
As Jesus was throwing the money makers out of temple, you'll remember that he scolded them for carrying on their business in HIS FATHERS house.
True JC was an expert at illustrations and parables. And yes many times he had to simplify things for us dumb humans. But he came to teach. He wanted his purpose on the earth to be very clear to everyone. His illustrations were meant to simplify not confuse. Also I do not know where in the bible it says that God can not die, so I will not argue with that. But I do know that the bible says God can not lie. With that in mind, why would Jesus say that he did nothing of his own initiative, but rather that of his father's. And when he speaks coming to do the will of him that sent him, who is that "him?"
It's questions like these that keep me from believing in a trinity
SwedishChef,
You asked why I side with Herk and not you. In this thread, it hasn't been for me a matter of taking sides with anybody, but I try to be fair in my assessment of what's being said. Overall, I feel Herk has done better at sticking to the plain statements made in the Bible whereas you seem to be putting into the Bible things that it really doesn't say. Herk is a friend of mine, but he and I don't agree about everything. He has his views on Christ, and I have mine.
As for insults and name-calling, I think you outdo him in that area. You do as much belittling of others as anybody, if not more so.
I don't think his cartoons are insulting. In fact, I think they make some valid points.
Many times you're very inconsistent, and I don't think most Trinitarians would agree with you. For example, you said,
I have given plain Scripture which identifies the Messiah as the Father.
How many Trinitarians do you know who would agree that the Messiah is the Father? The Messiah is the Son of God, not God the Father.
You also wrote:
John 1:1 says Jesus is God.
The fact is, it just doesn't. It says "the Word" was God. I'm not intending to debate with you about that. I just want you to see that this is an example of how I think you read into things. By confusing terms, you make discussion far more complicated than it needs to be.
You wrote:
If you've read some of my other posts, and posts of other Trinitarians here, you will see that there is a large mass of passages in the Bible which identify Jesus as God, or having traits that only God can have.
Believe me, I've read everything in this thread. I just can't agree with you. I think you see things in many texts that just isn't there. I get the impression that you are constantly on the lookout for evidence of the Trinity, and when you spot something that has possibilities, you sieze upon it and make it into more than what it really says.
So, I think you're incorrect when you say "a large mass of passages" when many of us don't see even one.
fjtoth
DakotaRed,
You are absolutely right when you say
Jesus himself refuted the trinity, before it was even formulated 400 years after his death.
As you've shown in your many posts, these are some of many examples that could be mentioned:
Is Jesus God?
His answer, when speaking to his Father: "You [are] the only true God." (John 17:3)
Does Jesus worship the same God as his disciples worship?
His answer: "My God, my God." (Matthew 27:46)
"My God, my God." (Mark 15:34)
"My God and your God." (John 20:17)
"My God," "my God," "my God," "my God." (Revelation 3:12)
God doesn't pray to anyone, but did Jesus feel a need to pray to God?
His answer: He said to God, "O Father, Lord of heaven and earth." (Matthew 11:25)
He prayed: "O my Father, if it be possible." (Matthew 26:39, 42)
He spent all night in prayer to his Father. (Luke 6:12; see also Hebrews 5:7, 8)
He prayed: "Father, the hour is come." (John 17:1)
Did Jesus claim equality with God?
His answer: "It is not mine to give what my Father has prepared." (Matthew 20:23)
"My Father is greater than all." (John 10:29)
"The Father is greater than I." (John 14:28)
God is not inferior to anyone, but did Jesus say he was inferior?
His answer: "Not my will, but thine be done." (Luke 22:42)
"I do the will of him who sent me." (John 4:34)
"I do the will of him who sent me." (John 5:30)
"I came not to do my own will." (John 6:38)
"I do those things that please him." (John 8:20)
God knows everything, but does Jesus?
His answer: "Only the Father knows the day and hour." (Mark 13:32)
"I do what I see the Father do." (John 5:19)
"As the Father taught me, that is what I do." (John 8:28)
"The Father has placed knowledge in his own authority." (Acts 1:7)
God is Almighty in power, but from where did Jesus receive his power?
His answer: "The Son can do nothing of himself." (John 5:19)
"Of my own self I can do nothing." (John 5:30)
"I do nothing of myself." (John 8:28)
"The Father is doing his own works in me." (John 14:10)
Is Jesus God, or is he the reflective image of God?
His answer: "He who sees me has seen him who sent me." (John 12:45; compare 2 Corinthians 4:4; Philippians 2:6; Colossians 1:15, 19; 2:9 and Hebrews 1:3)
"He who has seen me has seen the Father." (John 14:9)
Herk
Brilliant outline Herk. You didn't steal that from some JW publications did you?
Brilliant outline Herk. You didn't steal that from some JW publications did you?
Nope he stole it from fjtoth who is sitting him next to him on the same seat! Hmm I think herk might just be a trinity......
Brummie (fjtoth IW busted you ....but thats fine by me)
Back to the serious thinkers...How could Jesus say "Where ever 2 or 3 are gathered in my name I am there also" if he wasnt omnipresent? Like he can be "Where-ever" at one time huh.
And why dont we translate John 1vs1 as "In "A" beginning was A word"?
Sorry if this has already been discussed but theres NO WAY I am going to read 26 pages on the trinity as much as Im tempted.
Jesus is Lord.
Brummie
Crazy151drinker and Chevysntats,
God is immortal. He is indestructible and not subject to death. He is "the incorruptible God." (Romans 1:23) He is "the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God." (1 Timothy 1:17) While Christ and his followers receive immortality from God, he alone is the original source of immortality. God "alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see." (1 Timothy 6:16)
fjtoth
SwedishChef,
In your reply of
Dec 5, 2002 22:56 you said :I believe that there is one God eternally existing and manifesting Himself to us in three persons--Father, Son and Holy Spirit.You then quote John 14:9-20 where Jesus says "I am in the Father and the Father in me" and another Comforter, the Spirit of truth, "dwelleth with you, and shall be in you...At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you." You conclude that this passage is proof that Jesus, the Father, and the Holy Spirit are ONE.
However, that does not answer my question but demonstrates the need for it. I do not question the oneness of God and Christ but it is quite evident from this thread that many will read this passage and conclude the oneness has nothing to do with a trinity because it is the same oneness that exists between Christ and the disciples.
To repeat my question for your consideration:
R.A.Torrey says that they cannot be three and one in the same sense. In what sense, then, are they one ? If you agree with the creeds that they are one in substance then I would appreciate consideration of my question: If you do not believe that the nature/substance of the angels is the same as the Son because they were created but he was begotten, why do you believe the nature/substance of the Holy Spirit, who was neither created no begotten, is the same as the Son and the Father ? If you do not believe they are one in substance in what sense do you believe they are one ?
Earnest
