The Trinity

by meadow77 740 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  UnDisfellowshipped

  Refute these Verses, I dare ya!

  Revelation 1:4: John, to the seven assemblies that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace, from God, who is and who was and who is to come; and from the Seven Spirits who are before His throne;
  Revelation 1:5: and from Jesus Christ, the Faithful Witness, the Firstborn of the dead, and the Ruler of the kings of the Earth. To Him who loves us, and washed us from our sins by His Blood;

  2nd Corinthians 13:14: May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with all of you!

  Edited by - UnDisfellowshipped on 4 December 2002 6:30:39
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  JosephMalik

  Also, what did the Pharisees find Jesus guilty of in their "Trial"?

  Matthew 26:63: But Jesus held His peace. The high priest answered Him, "I adjure You by the Living God, that You tell us whether You are the Christ, the Son of God."

  Undisfellowshipped,

  The question was are You the Christ which means Messiah or Saviour.

  This Christ would be someone uncondemned a true Son of God superior in status before God to them.

  Undisfellowshipped said: Then the high priest tore his clothing, saying, "He has spoken blasphemy! Why do we need any more witnesses? Behold, now you have heard His blasphemy.
  Matthew 26:66: What do you think?" They answered, "He is worthy of death!"

  So obviously, the Pharisees knew what the Title "The Son of God" meant.

  They knew what the Messiah meant. They did not believe that Jesus qualified to be this Messiah. That much is certain. For similar reasons they did not believe that this Jesus was Justified and without sin, worthy to be called Son of God. But to say they knew that The Son of God meant God himself is not obvious nor stated in this text. We must stay with what is written and supported elsewhere in scripture which I did. They often failed to understand our Lords message and this is but one example of their failure. Making oneself God is not the same as being God since making oneself God simply is making oneself superior to them notice.

  John 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

  Now that to them is blasphemy just as it is to WT leadership when someone knows more than they do. But scripturally even doing this is not wrong as our Lord proved to them. This is also why our Lord spoke in parables. Notice:

  Matthew 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

  Matthew 13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:

  Matthew 13:35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

  To say that they obviously knew what Son of God means is not supported by scripture. What we do know is they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

  Joseph
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  JosephMalik

  Who is the Creator of the Universe and Everything and Everyone?

  What does the Bible say?

  Genesis 1:1: In the beginning God created the Heavens and the Earth.

  Undisfellowshipped,

  Fine so far.

  Genesis 1:26: God said, "Let Us make man in Our Image, after Our Likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the sky, and over the cattle, and over all the Earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the Earth."

  But here we have proof that the creation of mankind was a task that was delegated. The Being or Beings that make up this Us is not identified but at least we know someone else was also involved.

  Genesis 1:27: God created man in His own Image. In God's Image He created him; male and female He created them.

  This does not change this fact. It simple does not go into such detail as John, and Paul did.

  John 1:10: He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world didn't recognize Him.

  Only the world of man capable of recognizing Him is under discussion by John.

  Hebrews 1:2: has at the end of these days spoken to us by His Son, whom He appointed Heir of all things, through whom also He made the Universe.

  Now this is cute. The King James Version states:

  2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

  It also means age like the age of mankind. But worlds is the way Paul also expressed the thought as well when he detailed the structure that made up such worlds like this:.

  Colossians 1:14: in whom we have our redemption, the forgiveness of our sins;
  Colossians 1:15: who is the Image of the Invisible God, the Firstborn of all creation.
  Colossians 1:16: For by Him were all things created, in the Heavens and on the Earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through Him, and for Him.
  Colossians 1:17: He is before all things, and in Him all things are held together.

  And with this detail we also learn that this Son is not God. What Paul taught is that this Son is the Image of the Invisible God. He did not create the Heavens and Earth either. What this Son did is create the things that are in the Heavens and on the Earth and then goes on to identify such government and common man including the Faith. It is only such things that this Son is before.

  Joseph
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  JosephMalik

  The Title "Son of Man" means Man.

  It would seem logical that the Title "Son of God" means God.

  Was "Son of God" used as a Special Title for Adam?

  I don't think so.

  All angels are called "sons of God" -- but is that a Special Title given to them?

  Christians are called "sons of God", even now in their Im-perfect condition, Christians are called "sons of God", but is that a Special Title?

  The Bible calls Jesus "The Only-Begotten Son", "The Unique Son", "The One-And-Only Son".

  Please let me know who else was called by those Titles.

  If I went around and called myself THE Son of God, the Pharisees and the Jews would have known what I meant.

  Undisfellowshipped,

  Well the texts themselves do not agree. Using terms like special title as if that alters the meaning means nothing. This expression was applied in scripture to the ones shown in my earlier thread and nothing offered here changes them.

  Joseph
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  herk

  UnDisfellowshipped,

  Has anyone informed you lately that you're a big cry baby? At least once before you had to be reminded about being touchy and holding a grudge.

  I think words have just been put in my mouth that I never spoke.

  That's a weird thing that's been happening to me lately in this Thread.

  Once again, I think words have been put in my mouth:

  And what is with all the Name-Calling here?

  Now, I'm Un-Sensible (to go along with the huge list of other Names I have been called in this Thread).

  Just like most of the other arrogant Trinitarians I know, you sit there and wimper when your arguments are shown to be totally without foundation in the Scriptures. If you had the Scriptures on your side, and If God were with you, you would have the utmost confident that "sticks and stones" won't break your bones and names will never hurt you. Your feelings wouldn't be hurt so easily. You would have the assurance that truth will ultimately triumph. Your frequent worries about what others think of you clearly demonstrate that you really don't have that confidence and assurance. And, because of being so self-centred rather than God and Christ oriented, and because you haven't learned how to use reason and logic, you often feel the need to respond with cockiness and lame-brain answers. Personally, I see no purpose in continuing to use reason with an unreasonable person. The Devil has succeeded in convincing you that the God of Christians is a freakish three-headed monster. You rarely read the Scriptures as they were meant to be read. Instead, you constantly read them only to find support for a pagan, God-dishonouring falsehood. You deserve to be mocked by the pictures I post, which are mainly for the enjoyment of those who see through your misguided thinking and deceptive teachings. Interestingly, you even have questions about graphic illustrations that even a child would understand.
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  LucidSky

  As far as believing or not believing in the Trinity, I believe that if it were supposed to be something that Christian salvation was contingent upon, it would be identified as such in Scripture. As far as I can tell -- love neighbor/God and having faith that Jesus is the Son of God were the only ones.

  More thoughts:

  • Why does the Bible use the phrase "God the Father" but not "God the Holy Spirit" or "God the Son"?
  • Why does the Bible use the phrases "Son of God" and "Spirit of God" but not "Father of God"?

  Edited by - LucidSky on 4 December 2002 8:50:32
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  LucidSky

  2nd Corinthians 13:14: May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with all of you!

  Oopsie! Looks like this verse is suggesting that Jesus and Holy Spirt are NOTGod.
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  herk
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  herk

  The Way Trinitarians Read the Bible

  What the Bible Actually Says at Matthew 3:16, 17:
  And Jesus ... saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, ... And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son.

  The Way Trinitarians Read Matthew 3:16, 17:
  And God the Son ... saw God the Holy Ghost descending like a dove, ... And lo the voice of God the Father from heaven, saying, This is my beloved God the Son.

  ---

  What the Bible Actually Says at Matthew 28:19:
  Go ... baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

  The Way Trinitarians Read Matthew 28:19:
  Go ... baptizing them in the name of God the Father, and of God the Son, and of God the Holy Ghost.

  ---

  What the Bible Actually Says at John 1:1:
  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

  The Way Trinitarians Read John 1:1:
  In the beginning was God the Son, and God the Son was with God the Father, and God the Son was God the Son.

  ---

  What the Bible Actually Says at John 14:16:
  And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter.

  The Way Trinitarians Read John 14:16:
  And I, God the Son, will pray to God the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, God the Holy Ghost.

  ---

  What the Bible Actually Says at 2 Corinthians 13:14:
  The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all.

  The Way Trinitarians Read 2 Corinthians 13:14:
  The grace of God the Son, and the love of God the Father, and the communion of God the Holy Ghost, be with you all.

  ---

  What the Bible Actually Says at 1 Peter 1:1, 2:
  Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the ... elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ.

  The Way Trinitarians Read 1 Peter 1:1, 2:
  Peter, an apostle of God the Son, to the ... elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of God the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of God the Son.

  ---

  Edited by - herk on 4 December 2002 10:32:4
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  fjtoth

  Edited by - fjtoth on 4 December 2002 16:40:12