The Trinity

by meadow77 740 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • herk
    herk

    SwedishChef,

    You asked,

    1) Who is the "most Holy"?
    2) Was there a certain time when Jesus was annointed?
    3) Who is the King of kings?

    Judging by previous dealings with you, I can't know whether you are sincere or trying to set me up for a trap. I can only know when you give your reason for asking.

    "Then the Pharisees went and plotted together how they might trap him in what he said. And they sent their disciples to him, along with the Herodians, saying, 'Teacher, we know that you are truthful and teach the way of God in truth, and defer to no one; for you are not partial to any. Tell us then, what do you think? Is it lawful to give a poll-tax to Caesar, or not?' But Jesus perceived their malice, and said, 'Why are you testing me, you hypocrites?'" (Matthew 22:15-18)

    "Then they sent some of the Pharisees and Herodians to him in order to trap him in a statement. They came and said to him, 'Teacher, we know that you are truthful and defer to no one; for you are not partial to any, but teach the way of God in truth. Is it lawful to pay a poll-tax to Caesar, or not? Shall we pay or shall we not pay?' But he, knowing their hypocrisy, said to them, 'Why are you testing me?'" (Mark 12:13-15)

    Herk

  • SwedishChef
    SwedishChef

    Herk, I was merely paying you a small complement. You should learn how to respond to them. Unfortunately you arrogantly threw it back in my face.
    Psalms 10:12 "Arise, O LORD; O God, lift up thine hand: forget not the humble."
    Try being this once in a while, Herk.

    You made some good points, but I have some refutations.

    Genesis 21:33 "And Abraham planted a grove in Beersheba, and called there on the name of the LORD, the everlasting God."

    Psalms 100:5 "For the LORD is good; his mercy is everlasting; and his truth endureth to all generations."

    Psalms 119:142 "Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth."

    Isaiah 40:28 "Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard, that the everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary? there is no searching of his understanding."

    What do all these verses have in common? The word everlasting, or "`owlam".

    You said:
    ["Everlasting origins" is a biased and misleading translation in Micah 5:2. The promise of the Messiah could be traced "to the distant past." The same Hebrew expression is found in Deuteronomy 32:7. The almost exact wording appears in Micah 7:14, Amos 9:11 and Isaiah 63:9, 11, where even the KJV consistently renders it as "the days of old," having nothing to do with eternity. The Hastings Bible Dictionary translates the expression in Micah 5:2 as "remote antiquity," adding that days of eternity wrongly suggests the eternal preexistence of the Messiah.]

    In Micah 5:2, I realized it's all a matter of interpretation. You gave some verses which the word "everlasting" is used clealy figurative meaning "time of old", or "ancient times." You were right about this.
    However, these verses which I gave you use the same word "everlasting", but it means something different.

    Genesis 21:33 "And Abraham planted a grove in Beersheba, and called there on the name of the LORD, the everlasting God."
    Isaiah 40:28 "Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard, that the everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary? there is no searching of his understanding."
    Does this mean that the LORD Jehovah is the God of ancient times? In these verses it clearly means that Jehovah is everlasting. Well, if these verses say that Jehovah is everlasting why not interpret that the word "everlasting" to mean the same thing in Micah 5:2?
    Again, I believe that it's a matter of interpretation. In some instances the word "`owlam" is clearly used to mean ancient times, and in others, it is really meant to mean eternity. Perhaps my argument wasn't as strong as I thought, but my interpretation still stands.

    Here is a perfect example of a verse that you ignore.

    Isaiah 9:6 "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."

    The Messiah is called the Mighty God and the everlasting Father.

  • SwedishChef
    SwedishChef

    Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

    Bible in Basic English
    Isaiah 9:6 For to us a child has come, to us a son is given; and the government has been placed in his hands; and he has been named Wise Guide, Strong God, Father for ever, Prince of Peace.

    Darby
    Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder; and his name is called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace.

    Webster
    Isaiah 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

    Young's
    Isaiah 9:6 For a Child hath been born to us, A Son hath been given to us, And the princely power is on his shoulder, And He doth call his name Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace.

    ASV
    Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

    Strong's Literal
    6. |3588| For |3206| a child |3205| is born |0000| to us. |1121| A son |5414| is given |0000| to us. |1961| And is |4951| the government |5921| on |7926| His shoulder. |7121| And is called |8034| his name |6383| wonderful, |3289| Counselor, |0410| the God |1368| Mighty, |5702| Everlasting Father, |8269| Prince of |7965| peace.

    I don't know of a version that doesn't say the Messiah is the Everlasting Father and the Mighty God.

  • SwedishChef
    SwedishChef

    The three questions I asked:
    1) Who is the "most Holy"?
    2) Was there a certain time when Jesus was annointed?
    3) Who is the King of kings?

    I will address #2 first. The first kind of go hand in hand.
    Yes, there is a time in the Bible when Jesus was annointed.

    Matthew 3:15-17 "And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him. And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."
    Luke 3:21,22 "Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened, And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased."
    Most scholars agree that at this time Jesus was annointed. He was annointed by the Holy Spirit to begin His ministry, which goes incompliace with the vision of the seventy weeks in Daniel chapter 9, where the Messiah would be anointed "most High."

    I'm sure you familar with the "seventy weeks of Daniel."
    Dan 9:24-26 "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined."

    Within this prophecy many events take place: the rebuilding of Jerusalem; the Messiah's actions; the desolation of Jerusalem. Everything is centered around Messiah.
    It is saying that before the seventy weeks are over, all these things will happen concerning the Messiah:
    1) Finish the transgression
    2) Make an end of sins
    3) Make reconciliation for iniquity
    4) Seal up the vision of prophecy
    5) Anoint the most High
    Jesus fulfilled all these things. He was sacrificed for our sins, and whoever believes on Him will have eternal life and be victorious. 1 Corinthians 15:55 "O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?"
    He fulfilled all the prophecies of the Messiah, and therefore sealed the vision of prophecy. The Messiah was anointed and exaulted above every name. He was anointed the most Holy.
    Phil 2:9 "Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:"
    This prophecy is one which identifies Messiah as the most Holy. Who can have the title "most Holy" but God Himself?

    Question: Who is the King of kings?
    Answer: The only one who can be called King of kings and Lord of lords is the Lord God Almighty Himself. Yet Jesus, the Lamb of God, is called this on several occasions.

    Revelation 17:14 "These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful."

    1 Timothy 6:14,15 "That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;"

    Revelation 19:16 "And he [Jesus] hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS."

  • herk
  • SwedishChef
    SwedishChef

    Herk, I pay complements when they are deserved, and I critisize you when it is deserved. But I have said nothing to you that you didn't deserve.
    You, on the other hand, really need to grow up.

  • SwedishChef
    SwedishChef

    I will never forget those kind, compassionate, concerned heartfelt words that Herk earnestly typed to Undisfellowshipped. Although we have not ever seen Herk, we could just imagine the sincere expression that enveloped his face as he displayed his love for fellow man. "Have you been on drugs?!"

  • gumby
    gumby

    Why don't you guys just meet up somewhere and just kick the living shit out of each other.....you LOVING Christians.

    Your pathetic!

  • herk
    herk

    SwedishChef,

    You wrote,

    In Micah 5:2, I realized it's all a matter of interpretation.

    That simply is not true. The KJV tells of a "ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from ever lasting." The context determines whether owlam means "everlasting" or an indefinite time period in the past. In the context of this verse we have the phrase "goings forth." Other translations are helpful in determining what that phrase means. Note some examples:

    "whose ORIGIN is from of old, FROM ANCIENT DAYS." (Revised Standard Version)
    "his COMINGS FORTH [are] of old, from the DAYS OF ANTIQUITY." (Young's Translation)
    "his ORIGIN goes back to THE DISTANT PAST, to the DAYS OF OLD." (The Jerusalem Bible)
    "whose ORIGIN is from OF OLD, from ANCIENT TIMES." (New American Bible)
    "whose ROOTS are FAR BACK IN THE PAST, in DAYS GONE BY." (New English Bible)
    "whose ORIGIN is OF OLD, of LONG DESCENT." (Moffatt's Translation)

    These translations all recognize that this verse speaks of a point of origin for the Messiah, a fixed point in time, and not about the Messiah being eternal. It is talking about at what point in time the Messiah first "went forth" or originated.

    Herk

  • SwedishChef
    SwedishChef

    Herk, after further investigation I must say your right on this one.
    However, it does not prove that the Messiah isn't God.

    Daniel 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
    Daniel 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
    Daniel 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

    We have every reason to believe the Ancient of days is the Lord God Almighty. Does this mean that the His roots go back only into ancient times?
    God has an everlasting past, and the Ancient of days clearly identifieds as God.

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