The Trinity

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  • SwedishChef
    SwedishChef

    From Matthew Henry's Commentary. (And you can't really call him ingorant to Scripture, he did write a commentary on the entire Bible)

    John 8:54

    "Before Abraham was, I AM." This speaks Abraham a creature, and our Lord the Creator; well, therefore, might he make himself greater than Abraham. I AM, is the name of God, Ex 3:14; it speaks his self-existence; he is the First and the Last, ever the same, Re 1:8. Thus he was not only before Abraham, but before all worlds, Pr 8:23; Joh 1:1.

    John 22-30
    All who have any thing to say to Christ, may find him in the temple. Christ would make us to believe; we make ourselves doubt. The Jews understood his meaning, but could not form his words into a full charge against him. He described the gracious disposition and happy state of his sheep; they heard and believed his word, followed him as his faithful disciples, and none of them should perish; for the Son and the Father were one. Thus he was able to defend his sheep against all their enemies, which proves that he claimed Divine power and perfection equally with the Father.

  • herk
    herk

    SwedishChef,

    According to the NASB, Isaiah 9:6 says, " For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; and the government will rest on his shoulders; and his name will be called Wonderful Counsellor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace."

    The Bible teaches that "there is but one God, the Father." (1 Corinthians 8:6) Since Jesus his Son was given or sent by him (John 3:16, 17; 17:1, 3), we need to examine in what sense he wants us to know the Son also as God and Father. Some translations, even several that were produced by Trinitarians, do not use "God" in this Isaiah text. For example:

    • "Wonder-Counsellor, Divine Champion, Father Ever, Captain of Peace."Byington.
    • "A wonder of a counsellor, a divine hero, a father for all time, a peaceful prince."Moffatt.
    • "in purpose wonderful, in battle God-like, Father for all time, Prince of Peace."NEB.
    • "Wonderful Counsellor, Mighty Hero, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace."Revised English Bible.
    • "Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty One, Potentate, Prince of Peace, Father of the age to come."The Septuagint, as found in the Codex Alexandrinus, translated by Sir Lancelot C. L. Brenton, c. 1850.
    • "Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty, Judge, Everlasting, Father, Prince, and Peace."(Sanhedrin 94a, in the Talmud).

    Two translations do not apply either "God" or "Father" to the Messiah:

    • "the Messenger of great counsel: for I will bring peace upon the princes, and health to him."The Septuagint, as found in the Codex Vaticanus, published in 1851 by Sir Lancelot C. L. Brenton.
    • "Wonderful counsellor of the mighty God, of the everlasting Father, of the Prince of peace."Tanach translation of the Hebrew Masoretic text.

    Ancient and modern Jews, as well as others, have taken the text to mean a mortal human ruler, namely, Judah's King Hezekiah, the son of Ahaz. The following quotations show that not all Trinitarians understand the verse as a reference to Christ only. Many of them accept the Jewish and unitarian applications initially to Hezekiah and ultimately to Christ:

    "Hezekiah, who was very unlike his father Ahaz. This passage is acknowledged, not only by Christians, but by the Chaldee interpreter, to relate in the same manner, but in a more excellent sense, to the Messiah."Annotationes ad vetus et Novum Testamentum, by Hugo Grotius, a Dutch Arminian, 1583-1645.

    Regarding the full phrase "the name they give him: Wonder-Counsellor, Mighty-God, Eternal-Father, Prince-of-Peace," a footnote in The Jerusalem Bible states:

    "A prophetic proper name, cf. 1:26+. ['I will restore your judges as of old, your counsellors as in bygone days.'] The child possesses to a supreme degree the qualities of all the great figures of his race: the wisdom of Solomon, the valour of David, the virtues of Moses and the patriarchs. Cf. 11:2. ['On him the spirit of Yahweh rests, a spirit of wisdom and insight, a spirit of counsel and power, a spirit of knowledge and of the fear of Yahweh.'] Christian tradition and the Christmas liturgy apply these titles to Christ, presenting him as the true Immanuel."

    There are good reasons to apply the name first to Hezekiah, since this is one of those outstanding texts of Isaiah that speak in exalted and royal terms both of Israel's kings and the coming human Messiah. The hope of Israel was resting on the permanence of David's dynasty. The symbolic name given to the royal child signified more than a continuation of the dynasty. It meant a decisive intervention by God whose own greatness would become manifest in his dealings with and blessings upon Hezekiah. This is suggested by the Jewish Publication Society's Masoretic Text rendering of Isaiah 9:5:

    "And his name is called Pele-joez-el-gibbor-Abi-ad-sar-shalom. [Footnote: That is, Wonderful in counsel is God the Mighty, the everlasting Father, the Ruler of peace.]"

    Whether applied to Hezekiah or to Christ or to both, the title "Mighty God" does not identify the person as God the Father. Others in the Bible are called gods because God the Father himself designated them as such. The term "Mighty God" is a kingly designation and is defined by the leading Hebrew lexicon as a "mighty hero" or "divine hero, reflecting the divine majesty" (Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament by Brown, Driver and Briggs, p.42, Oxford University Press) This mighty hero is "a warrior and defender of his people, like God himself." (The Catholic Study Bible, p. 888) It is an anomaly that the Protestant Reformer John Calvin, the man chiefly responsible for the execution of unitarian Michael Servetus, gave the following reasonable and scriptural explanation of God's appointment of other gods:

    "I said you are gods. Scripture gives the name of gods to those on whom God has conferred an honourable office. He whom God has separated, to be distinguished above all others [His Son] is far more worthy of this honourable title . . . The passage which Christ quotes [at John 10:34] is in Psalm Lxxxii [82], 6, I have said, You are gods, and all of you are children of the Most High; where God expostulates with the kings and judges of the earth, who tyrannically abuse the authority and power for their own sinful passions, for oppressing the poor, and for every evil action . . . Christ applies this to the case in hand, that they receive the name of gods, because they are God's ministers for governing the world. For the same reason Scripture calls the angels gods, because by them the glory of God beams forth on the world . . . In short, let us know that magistrates are called gods, because God has given them authority."Commentary on the Gospel According to John, by John Calvin, p. 419-20.

    And Martin Werner, DD, adds:

    "The word 'God' did mean, in the first place, the absolute divine omnipotence but it was also used for the beings who served this deus verus [Latin, 'god true'= (the) true God]. That these were designated 'gods' implies reverence and recognition of Him who sent them and whom they thus represented. Consequently in the Scriptures (Exod. xxii, 28), not only angels, but even men could be called 'gods' [cf. Ps. 8:5; Heb. 2:7, 9; Ps. 82:6, 7; John 10:34, 35] without according them the status in the strict sense. Even Latantius [260-330 C.E.] had thought in this way."The Formation of Christian Dogma: An Historical Study of Its Problems, by Martin Werner, New York: Harper & Brothers, 1957, p. 140.

    We will mislead ourselves if we do not try to understand the words of Isaiah 9:6 in the unitarian manner understood by Isaiah himself and his ancient audience. As explained by a Trinitarian scholar, historian and scientist during the Reformation:

    "The words of Isaiah, Deus fortis, 'strong God,' have been differently interpreted. It is evident, that the term God is in Hebrew applied figuratively to those who excel - to angels, heroes, and magistrates; and some render it here, not God, but brave or hero."apud Sandium, p. 118, by Esromus Rudingerus [1523-90], as quoted in The Concessions of Trinitarians, by John Wilson, Manchester, 1842; Boston, 1845.

    Martin Luther himself became aware of this. We read concerning him:

    "In several places of his Expositions and Sermons, he maintains that the epithets [of Isaiah 9:6] belong, not to the person of Christ, but to his work and office. He understands [el] in the sense of power or ability, citing for his authority Deut. Xxviii. 32, where, as in about four other places, the expression occurs of an action's being or not being 'in the power of the hand.'"Scripture Testimony to the Messiah, Third ed., London, 1837, by Dr. J. P. Smith.

    Another Trinitarian of the Reformation period wrote:

    "The word [el] here used is applicable, not only to God, but to angels and men worthy of admiration. Whence it does not appear, that the Deity of Christ can be effectually gathered from this passage."apud Sandium, p. 118, by Sasbout Vosmeer, Archbishop of Utrecht (Old Catholic), 1602-1614, as quoted in The Concessions of Trinitarians, by John Wilson, Manchester, 1842; Boston, 1845.

    Referring to Isaiah 9:6 and other Hebrew texts often cited as evidence of the Trinity, The Catholic Encyclopedia makes the following admission:

    "Even these exalted titles did not lead the Jews to recognize that the Saviour to come was to be none other than God Himself."

    Neither should we allow ourselves to be misled. The weight of the evidence is for unitarian belief, not Trinitarianism:

    "Thus it appears that none of the passages cited from the Old Test[ament] in proof of the Trinity are conclusive. . . . We do not find in the Old Test[ament] clear or decided proof upon this subject."Cyclopedia of Biblical, Theological and Ecclesiastical Literature, by McClintock and Strong.

    It is therefore a grave mistake to believe that the term "God" must be applied only to God the Father. Israel's ancient judges were called "gods." Seven centuries before Jesus was born, the Jews had absolutely no problem in viewing Hezekiah as "Mighty God." Why, then, should anyone today insist that the Messiah is the absolute God simply because he also is called "Mighty God"? Hezekiah and the Messiah in Hebrew are called El Gib-bohr. They are never called El Shad-dai, a term exclusively applied to God the Father. The Father has always had absolute and unlimited power while the Messiah has not. Furthermore, the Messiah is called a "Prince," a title that is never applied to God, the universal Ruler who has no King above himself.

    The Hebrew for "God" in Isaiah 9:6 is el, defined in Strong's Concordance as "strength; as adj[ective] mighty; espec[ially] the Almighty (but used also of any deity)." We also read:

    "It is evident that [el] properly denotes strong, powerful, and is used in Ezek. Xxxi.11, of king Nebuchadnezzar, who is called 'the mighty one of the heathen.'"Scholia in Vetus Testamentum. Lips. 1828-36, 6 vols., by Ernst F. K. Rosenmuller, Prof. of the Arabic Language at Leipzig; d. 1836.

    The fact that el is used in Isaiah 57:5 to describe idols shows that it is a general term. It can be applied to any mighty being, not only to God the Father. There are instances where el does not even refer to a god or idol. (Job 41:25; Psalms 29:1; 82:1; 89:6; and Ezekiel 31:11) Thus, God the Father is the chief el and rules over all other mighty ones called el. There is but one "only true God" in the absolute and unlimited sense, without qualifications. (John 17:3) The Father remains in the unitarian sense "God of gods and Lord of lords." (Deuteronomy 10:17) Others exist as gods in a limited and qualified sense. The highest form of worship is to be given to the one Almighty God, namely, the Father.

    To worship or show reverence for the Messiah as "Mighty God" is not a breaking of the first of the Ten Commandments, where God wrote upon stone: "You shall have no other gods before me." (Exodus 20:3) It is the will of God the Father "that all will honour the Son even as they honour the Father." That is a new commandment from God as valid as any of the Ten Commandments, and if we break it we are dishonouring God by disobeying him. (John 5:23) The Father says of the Son, "Let all the angels of God worship him." (Hebrews 1:6) Any angel refusing to worship the Son would be rebelling against the Father. Children inherit the name of their father, and the Son of God "has inherited a more excellent name than" the angels. (Hebrews 1:4) That name is the name of his Father. That is why Jesus could pray to God concerning his disciples, "keep them in your name, the name which you have given me." (John 17:11) The Father speaks to the Son in the same way Israel's kings were addressed: "Your throne, O God is forever and ever." (Hebrews 1:8; compare Psalm 45:1-11.) When Jesus returns to the earth his waiting people will exclaim, "Behold, this is our God for whom we have waited that he might save us." (Isaiah 25:9) It is the will of the Father that we should in this way honour his Son. In doing so we render supreme honour to the Father. To disobey is to dishonour and to do wrong to the Father.

    Nevertheless, the Son is not actually or ultimately the Almighty God. He is the "Mighty God." There is One called "the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ" whom he worships and serves. (Ephesians 1:3, 17; 1 Peter 1:3; Revelation 3:12) Jesus sits upon the throne of God because his Father gives him that throne. Because Jesus "loved righteousness and hated lawlessness," he is rewarded as promised: "therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness above your companions." (Hebrews 1:9) Jesus is so gloriously great because "God has made him both Lord and Christ." (Acts 2:36) The Father has given him "all authority . . . in heaven and on earth." (Matthew 28:18) For that reason, Jesus could say, "All things have been handed over to me by my Father." (Matthew 11:27) He is "Lord of all" next to the Father, for "God is the head of Christ."Acts 10:36; 1 Corinthians 11:3.

    Even so, just as the young child Jesus "continued in subjection to" Joseph and Mary, (Luke 2:51) the glorified Christ even now continues to render obedience to his God and Father in heaven. (Hebrews 5:8) The time will come when he will demonstrate his subjection to God on a universal scale: "When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to him, so that God may be all in all."1 Corinthians 15:27, 28.

    A problem in the minds of some is that Isaiah 10:20, 21 refers to God the Father as "the mighty God." Those verses say: "Now in that day the remnant of Israel, and those of the house of Jacob who have escaped, will never again rely on the one who struck them, but will truly rely on the LORD, the Holy One of Israel. A remnant will return, the remnant of Jacob, to the mighty God." Some are puzzled because the title "Mighty God" seems to suggest to them a measure of equality between God the Father and his Son. If there truly is only one Almighty God, as the Scriptures clearly teach, why are both Father and Son called "Mighty God"?1 Corinthians 8:4; Isaiah 43:10; 44:6.

    We should not hastily conclude that a certain title must always refer to one person. In the Bible, men bore the name Eli, meaning "my God," even though Jesus addressed his Father as Eli. (1 Samuel 1:9; Matthew 27:46). Both Nebuchadnezzar and Jesus Christ were called "king of kings." (Daniel 2:37; Revelation 17:14) Both Jesus and his disciples were called "the light of the world." (Matthew 5:14; John 8:12) Jesus was called "Son of God" and many others in the Bible were called "sons of God." (Genesis 6:2; Job 2:1; Matthew 5:9; Mark 1:1; Luke 3:38) The context in each case shows the distinction between the persons bearing similar titles or who are described in similar terms. Similarly, children call men their "father," but that does not equate them with God who is the greatest Father of all.

    Oneness Pentecostals or "Jesus Only" churches try to use Isaiah 9:6 as evidence that Jesus is God the Father in the sense that there is only one Person within the Godhead. They do not believe in the Trinity but claim that the one God assumes the three different roles of Father, Son and Holy Spirit. This belief is known as modalism.

    The title "eternal Father" cannot be construed to mean that Jesus is God the Father. The "Son" of "God the Father" cannot himself be called "God the Father." (John 1:18; 3:16) "Our Lord Jesus Christ" cannot be "The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ." (2 Corinthians 11:31) Even Trinitarians acknowledge that the Bible makes a clear distinction between the Father and the Son and that it shows they do not either simultaneously or in sequence perform the same role. Thus, Isaiah 9:6 cannot be used as proof for the doctrines of either the Oneness Pentecostals or the Trinitarians, for then Jesus would be the Father within the Godhead, and he would not be the Son.

    A person is not God simply because somewhere in the Bible he is spoken of as father. Certainly Abraham was not God, though he is called "Father Abraham" and "the father of us all." (Luke 16:24; Romans 4:16) Neither was the apostle Paul, though he said, "I became your father through the gospel." (1 Corinthians 4:15) Nor was the apostle John who addressed fellow Christians as "my children."3 John 4.

    Jesus became the Father of children in a grander way than John and Paul and even Abraham. He is called "the eternal Father," not because he is God the Father, but because of those he calls "the children whom God has given me." (Hebrews 2:13; compare Isaiah 8:18.) Concerning the children God has given him to raise up and glorify, Jesus said, "However, those the Father has given me will come to me, and I will never reject them. And this is the will of God, that I should not lose even one of all those he has given me, but that I should raise them to eternal life at the last day." (John 6:37, 39, NLT) Christians are the children of Christ in the sense that he gives them new life and is the one through whom they are granted immortal glory.Philippians 3:20, 21; Colossians 3:3, 4.

    Perhaps someone will object by saying, "Doesn't 'eternal' mean that he always has been a Father, even from eternity past?" The answer is "No, not at all." According to Romans 6:23, "the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." Surely that does not mean that we were always in existence in the past! There is another Hebrew word that means eternity both past and present. However, the word translated as "eternal" in Isaiah 9:6 means, according to the Hebrew Lexicon by Brown-Driver Briggs: "for ever (of future time)." Strong's Dictionary defines it as "duration, in the sense of advance or perpetuity," and Strong's Concordance gives as the primary definition: "perpetuity, for ever, continuing future." Additionally, Strong's Hebrew Lexicon gives the definition: "properly, a (peremptory) terminus, i.e. (by implication) duration, in the sense of advance or perpetuity (substantially as a noun, either with or without a preposition):eternity, ever(-lasting, -more), old, perpetually, + world without end." In harmony with those meanings, The Septuagint gives Messiah's title as "father of the age to come." (Codex Alexandrinus, translated by Sir Lancelot C. L. Brenton and Septuagint translation by Archimandrite Ephrem Lash. Also, see The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, Vol. 1., p. 326.) Interestingly, the Catholic Douay-Rheims Version of the Bible calls Messiah "the Father of the world to come."

    The same Hebrew word is used in Psalm 37:29: "The righteous will inherit the land and dwell in it forever." Certainly no one would claim that the righteous never had a beginning. The meaning is that their lives will never have an end. So, clearly, Jesus is an eternal "Father of the world to come," the "Father of the age to come," since both he and the children given to him by God will live forever and never die.

    Christ is appropriately called "Father" from the standpoint of his becoming the second Adam. Adam was the father or life giver to the human race. Through disobedience he became a dying sinner and lost his own right to life. He passed on to his posterity his own sinful and dying nature. Thus Adam failed to become the "eternal Father" or life giver that God intended him to be. Christ receives that title because he will accomplish what Adam failed to do. "For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven." (1 Corinthians 15:22, 47, RSV) "He became to all those who obey him the source of eternal salvation." (Hebrews 5:9) In this way Christ does more than replace Father Adam. From Adam we inherited a life of sin, sorrow and death in a body that is weak, dishonourable, mortal and perishable. From Christ we can receive eternal life in a body that is powerful, glorious, immortal and imperishable.1 Corinthians 15:35-50; Romans 5:18, 19.

    While Jesus occasionally addressed the disciples as children, he apparently did so only in the sense that the apostles John and Paul did so. (Mark 10:24; John 13:33; 21:5; Galatians 4:19; 1 John 2:1; 4:4; 5:21) Nowhere is it recorded that the disciples called him "Father." Why not? Because God adopts those whom he calls out in this age as his own sons. (Romans 8:14,15; Galatians 4:5; Ephesians 1:5) In view of this adoption, Jesus instructed his followers to pray "Our Father." (Luke 11:2) "Pray to your Father who is in secret and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you. . . . for your Father knows what you need before you ask him." (Matthew 6:6, 8) He also told them to "glorify your Father who is in heaven." (Matthew 5:16) "Be children of your Father." (Matthew 5:45, NRV) Jesus also said: "I ascend to my Father and your Father, and my God and your God."John 20:17.

    Jesus said regarding his relationship with his disciples: "For whoever does the will of my Father who is in heaven, he is my brother and sister and mother." (Matthew 12:50) "Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, he who is in heaven." (Matthew 23:9) And we read at Hebrews 2:11 that "both he [Christ] who sanctifies and those [the disciples] who are sanctified are all from one Father; for which reason he [Christ] is not ashamed to call them brethren."

    Isaiah 9:6 is therefore simply another unitarian passage that helps us to properly understand how both God and Jesus can be our Father, while only one of them is the absolute God. Jesus is Father in the same sense that he is God, not as a member of a triune Godhead, but representatively, as the chief agent of God the Father. While Jesus said "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me, and I give eternal life to them," Paul explains that it is because "God has not only raised the Lord, but will also raise us up through his power." (John 10:27, 28; 1 Corinthians 6:14) Both texts are correct. Jesus imparts eternal life to others because God has empowered him to do so.

    The source of Jesus' authority and power is the same now as it was during his earthly ministry. However, his authority and power have been expanded to an unfathomably grander extent since his resurrection and ascension to heaven. When the crowds observed Jesus' miracles, "they were awestruck, and glorified God, who had given such authority to men." (Matthew 9:8; 15:31; Luke 5:25; 17:15; 23:47) Jesus was the agent in doing the works of God, and that is why the people glorified God the Father. Jesus was not God himself, any more than were the apostles, whose ministry also resulted in many "people . . . all glorifying God for what had happened."Acts 4:21; Galatians 1:24.

    The authority and power that Jesus now has in his possession is in fulfillment of Isaiah 9:6. He now gives us even greater reasons to render glory to God. Jesus said, "All authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth." (Matthew 28:18) His explanation of how he received that authority is not only decidedly unitarian in nature but also distinctly as Isaiah 9:6 foretold it would be:

    "For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son [as "Eternal Father"] also gives life to whom he wishes. For not even the Father judges anyone, but he has given all judgment to the Son [as "Mighty God"], so that all will honour the Son [as "Mighty God"] even as they honour the Father. He who does not honour the Son [as "Mighty God"] does not honour the Father who sent him. Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my word [as "Wonderful Counsellor"], and believes him who sent me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God [as "Everlasting Father"], and those who hear will live. For just as the Father has life in himself, even so he gave to the Son [as "Eternal Father"] also to have life in himself; and he gave him authority to execute judgment [as "Prince of Peace"], because he is the Son of Man. Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear his voice [as "Prince of Peace"], and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment. I can do nothing on my own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and my judgment [as "Prince of Peace"] is just, because I do not seek my own will, but the will of him who sent me."John 5:21-30.

    The above words of Jesus offer a unique explanation of how Isaiah 9:6 has been, is, and will be undergoing fulfillment in him. As "the Son of Man" who has been "given all judgment," he possesses a perfect understanding of our weaknesses. To us he is "Wonderful Counsellor" indeed. He judges according to what he hears from his Father, and whoever listens and obeys him "has eternal life, and does not come into judgment." Jesus shows that he is the "Mighty God" by seeking not his "own will, but the will of him who sent" him. He is God's chief agent who is due honour such as should be given to the Father, for "He who does not honour the Son does not honour the Father who sent him." Jesus demonstrates that he is the "Eternal Father" because he "raises the dead and gives them life" and "gives life to whom he wishes." The life he gives is eternal. He is the "Prince of Peace" because he will judge and punish "those who committed the evil deeds" and reward and bless "those who did the good deeds."

    At Philippians 2:9, the apostle Paul wrote about Jesus: "God highly exalted him, and bestowed on him the name which is above every name." The prophet Isaiah helps us to know what that name is. The "name" (singular) that he is called is "Wonderful Counsellor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace." He does not receive that "name" by a popular vote of the people. Isaiah 9:7 says, "The zeal of the LORD of hosts will accomplish this." God the Father will accomplish with zeal the setting up of a perfect government with his chosen Messiah ruling from "the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness from then on and forevermore." In this, the strongest possible way, God the Father has demonstrated his care for mankind.

    By showing appreciative respect and reverential honour for Jesus' "name"the great authority and power given to him by Godwe come to be among those of whom it is said: "Every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."Philippians 2:1

    Herk

  • Earnest
    Earnest

    SwedishChef,

    When I suggested that using the excuse that "God is infinite, we are finite" to avoid thinking about what we believe, you accused me of being a liar and braggart if I claimed to understand the existence of God. That is a neat way of evading the question that I raised. While I cannot comprehend the infinite I do understand and can explain what I believe about God, which R.A.Torrey (whom you quote) says "is manifestly impossible" for trinitarians.

    The fact is that the Church has explained what they believe about the trinity in both the Nicene and Athanasian creeds which is what I was asking about. That is why it is a cop-out to dismiss questions because..."God is a mystery". R.A.Torrey says that they cannot be three and one in the same sense. In what sense, then, are they one ? If you agree with the creeds that they are one in substance then I would appreciate consideration of my question: If you do not believe that the nature/substance of the angels is the same as the Son because they were created but he was begotten, why do you believe the nature/substance of the Holy Spirit, who was neither created no begotten, is the same as the Son and the Father ? If you do not believe they are one in substance in what sense do you believe they are one ?

    If one resorts to saying that the teaching cannot be explained then you believe it because the Church says it is true. That is fine if you are Catholic and believe that God continues to reveal truth through the Pope (when he speaks "ex cathedra"). But I gathered that was not the case. Although I wouldn't speak too badly of the Catholics as they are second cousins to Baptists (related via the Church of England). The Mormons also believe in latter-day revelation but their trinity is three gods so that won't do. But, teasing aside, if we are searching for truth we do need to measure it against what we have already proven to be true.

    Earnest

  • Ginosko
    Ginosko

    Hi Swedish,

    In this forum there are a lot of guys who really investigated who really are Jesus Christ, but they don't want to talk more about this topic, because they don't believe that this point is of utmost importance for salvation, maybe they as me are little tired to talk about this point. But with some hope that you understand some of us, I will give you some usufull information:

    1. I AM in John 8:58. From the greek Ego Eimi.

    2. Exodus 3:14 From the septuagint in greek Ego Eimi Ho On translated I AM WHO I AM. The large name of God.

    3. Exodus 3:14 From the septuagint in greek Ho On translated I AM. The short form of God.

    4. Look it again Ho On, not Ego Eimi is the short form of the name of God.

    5.Gen 3:24 Ego Eimi aplied to a slave of Abraham.

    6. Mat 26:25 Ego Eimi used by Judas.

    7. Therefore, Ego Eimi is not a form of the name of God.

    This is only a small list of verses, you can make your own research.

    What about the Bible commentary ? Obviously is wrong, at least in this point. Why do people so educated and inteligent make this kind of obvious mistakes ? A mistery to me, maybe they want to see things that really aren't there because of beliefs. What do you think about ?

    Beware, I you continue trying to arguing about the trinity, maybe some of us will convince you against your actual thoughts.

    Agape, and that God be mercy of any of us who being sincerilly, actually is wrong.

    Edited by - Ginosko on 5 December 2002 22:37:50

  • SwedishChef
    SwedishChef

    Herk, as I was skimming through the writing you posted, I became aware of many twistings of Scripture.

    "Isaiah 9:6 is therefore simply another unitarian passage that helps us to properly understand how both God and Jesus can be our Father, while only one of them is the absolute God. Jesus is Father in the same sense that he is God, not as a member of a triune Godhead, but representatively, as the chief agent of God the Father. While Jesus said "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me, and I give eternal life to them," Paul explains that it is because "God has not only raised the Lord, but will also raise us up through his power." (John 10:27, 28; 1 Corinthians 6:14) Both texts are correct. Jesus imparts eternal life to others because God has empowered him to do so."

    Surely someone reading the Scriptures with an open mind would never come to this conclusion. You just can't get around the Messiah being called the Father, so you must twist it into saying something that it is not.

    Jesus says in Matthew 23:9 "And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven."

    There can be only one Father, and the Messiah is identified as Him in this passage in Isaiah.

  • herk
    herk

    SwedishChef,

    You wrote:

    There can be only one Father, and the Messiah is identified as Him in this passage in Isaiah.

    If Jesus is the Messiah, and the Messiah is God the Father, as you state here, who is the Son of God? What would his name be, according to your interpretation?

    Herk

  • SwedishChef
    SwedishChef

    "If you do not believe that the nature/substance of the angels is the same as the Son because they were created but he was begotten, why do you believe the nature/substance of the Holy Spirit, who was neither created no begotten, is the same as the Son and the Father?"

    Earnest, I believe that there is one God eternally existing and manifesting Himself to us in three persons--Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

    John 14:9-20 "John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it. If ye love me, keep my commandments. And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you."

    This passage is proof that Jesus, the Father, and the Holy Spirit are ONE.
    If you have seen Jesus, you have seen the Father.
    The Father dwells in Jesus, Jesus dwells in the bosom of the Father. (John 1:18)
    Jesus and the Father are one. Jesus, the Father, and the Holy Spirit are one.
    This is quite obvious in this passage.
    "He (the Father) will give you another Comforter (Holy Ghost)." Notice, the Comforter will dwell in them. Jesus says "he dwelleth with you", then he says "I shall be in you". He also says "I will come to you." Jesus will dwells in me, for the Holy Spirit dwells in me. For they are one. Jesus says "I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you." Jesus is one with the Holy Spirit, for if the Spirit dwells in you, Jesus dwells in you. And Jesus is one with the Father.

    The Spirit is one with the Father.
    Genesis 1:2 "And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."
    Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
    Job 33:4 The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.

    So you see, the Holy Ghost, the Father, and the Son are one.

    1 John 5:7 "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."

  • SwedishChef
    SwedishChef

    To me, this passage in John 14 could not be any clearer.

  • herk
  • JosephMalik
    JosephMalik

    Exodus 3:14 From the Septuagint in Greek Ego Eimi Ho On translated I AM WHO I AM. The large name of God.

    Ginsosko,

    In Zondervans Septuagint it is translated I AM THE BEING.

    Ginsosko said: 3. Exodus 3:14 From the septuagint in greek Ho On translated I AM. The short form of God.

    The Ho Ohn is translated again THE BEING for the second time. While not a short form of Gods name it does mean something like THE GOD or ONLY TRUE GOD as compared to other uses of such terms.

    But the point was good. And your argument valid. The only proper way to represent the I AM in Hebrew is I AM THE BEING in Greek the way the Septuagint rendered it which is something our Lord did not say.

    Joseph

    Edited by - JosephMalik on 6 December 2002 0:9:37

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