The Trinity (page 61)

What I find most interesting, UnD, is how easily you and others cast aside Jesus' clearly worded statement to the Father of His being "the only true God" in favor of Stephens word which may or may not mean as you wish.

Sorry if this offends, but it sure appears that it is a matter of protect the doctrine at any cost. But, let's look again, shall we?

55. But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
56. And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

If only one God, as all claim, how was it possible that Stephen saw two? He clearly indicates two separate beings. If you researched it, "standing at the right hand" is a position of honor, not one of equality. Clearly, if Jesus is God and God is God, Stephen saw two Gods. Scripture is consistent that God is one and one only.

57. Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,
58. And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.
59. And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
60. And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

Rather than a declaration by Stephen that Jesus is God, I see him more asking to forgive those stoning him. Remember context? The context here is showing me an example of the persecution that was to befall the followers of Jesus and a humble attitude over it. By twisting it out of context to fit the trinity, when it only shows two members, not three, that is placing the doctrine in scripture, not finding it there.

Is it the inclusion of the words "calling upon God" that makes you believe Jesus to be identified as God here? Interestingly, others state it as;

59. And they stoned Stephen, calling upon the Lord, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. (ASV)

59. And as the murderous stones came hurtling at him, Stephen prayed, ``Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.'' (LVB)

59. While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." (NIV)

59. And as they were stoning Stephen, he prayed, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." (RSV)

59. Then they began to throw stones at Stephen, but Stephen was praying. He said, ``Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!'' (SIM)

59. As they were stoning him, Stephen said in invocation, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." (NJB)

59. As they were stoning Stephen, he called out, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." (NAB)

But, Stephen did in fact utter the words to Jesus. Does that mean Jesus must be God? No, not to me.

John 14:13. And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
14. If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
15. If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16. And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

All authority has been granted to Jesus by the Father (Matt. 28:18; John 5:27; John 19:11) and Jesus is the mediator between God and man (1 Tim 2:5), no one can approach God except through Jesus (John 14:6). Since all has been granted to the Son by the Father, who else would Stephen utter the words to? As John 14:13 shows above, Jesus, upon hearing the words, would then approach the Father in Stephens behalf. Again, clearly showing Jesus in an intercessory role between God and man, not as God.

Sorry, but the context of the account of Stephen being stoned to death does not declare Jesus God any more than the context of John 8:58 shows Jesus declaring himself God.

To make the scriptures fit the trinity, almost every utterance of Jesus himself must be discarded in favor of vague and oft misquoted, or quoted out of context, verses of others lesser than Jesus. Bear in mind too, that the Bible was compiled by the early Catholic church and declared true by them. We accept that, yet also condemn the Catholics for their beliefs. The trinity doctrine sprang from the early Catholic church too, yet most all Protestant beliefs today vehemently cling to that too, while still condemning the Catholics for their beliefs. That always struck me as quite odd.

Lew W

Edited by - DakotaRed on 8 December 2002 11:21:49

SwedishChef

Herk, I am beginning to see a pattern. The more you get disproven, the more cartoons you post.

No one was able to refute my post about John 14.

Dakota,
how was I twisting Scripture again? These were Jesus' own words too.
The said that the Comforter (Holy Spirit) will "dwell in you". Then He says "I will come to you" and "in you." This is twisting? I am merely quoting.
The Holy Spirit is one with Jesus. The Holy Spirit is the very Spirit of God, and is one with God.
I'm sorry if you choose not to see it.

Also, no one has refuted Isaiah 9:6. The Messiah is called the everlasting Father. (Herk attempted to with a large post that clearly twisted Scripture)
Herk distorted Jesus's own words in Matthew 23:9 "And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven." There can be one Father, and the Messiah is identified as Him.

Dakota,
you also deny the correct translation of John 1:1, when I even sited A.T. Robertson who said it was right. You like to play Greek scholar a lot, but you deny what a REAL big time Greek Scholar says. It's proven that "the Word was God." That should settle it right there.

herk

SwedishChef

Another passage which proves the Deity of Christ.

Jude 1:24,25 "Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen."

Jude ends the letter with saying God is his Savior. Now wait a minute! I thought Jesus is the Savior!
Philippians 3:20 "For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:"
Titus 1:4 "To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour."
He is, Jesus is God.

God is identified as the Savior, futher more, the Savior is identified as the ONLY WISE GOD, to Him be "glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever."

Another verse which says the same thing:

1 Timothy 4:10 "For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe."

The living God is the Saviour.

DakotaRed

Dakota,
how was I twisting Scripture again? These were Jesus' own words too.
The said that the Comforter (Holy Spirit) will "dwell in you". Then He says "I will come to you" and "in you." This is twisting? I am merely quoting.
The Holy Spirit is one with Jesus. The Holy Spirit is the very Spirit of God, and is one with God.
I'm sorry if you choose not to see it.

I find it very odd how you pick and choose which of "Jesus' own words" are worthy of listening to. Yet, when he said that the Father was "the only True God," that the Father was "GREATER" than he and such, you turn a blind eye and istead, run to what a translator says is proper in a single out dated language Bible. Odd, but expected.

Also, no one has refuted Isaiah 9:6. The Messiah is called the everlasting Father. (Herk attempted to with a large post that clearly twisted Scripture)
Herk distorted Jesus's own words in Matthew 23:9 "And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven." There can be one Father, and the Messiah is identified as Him.

LOL, again, you ignore any refutation and instead, cry none was given. Never mind Jesus himself has refuted your every claim in all the 31 pages of this nonsense. Odd that you claim the trinity is so apparent in the Hebrew Scriptures, yet, no Jews accept it and they wrote it!

Dakota,
you also deny the correct translation of John 1:1, when I even sited A.T. Robertson who said it was right. You like to play Greek scholar a lot, but you deny what a REAL big time Greek Scholar says. It's proven that "the Word was God." That should settle it right there.

Again, you contnue to ignore refutations and whine about your "REAL big time Greek Scholar." Sorry, since no one has seen Jesus in over 2,000 years, no one has "PROVEN" anything. But, you also deny the very language you speak. If Jesus is God in John 1:1 and was also with God, you are stuck with two, count them, two Gods. Even a first grader can tell you that if you are with someone, there are two of you there.

I find it quite intriguing that you claim to be a Christian, and cling so heavily to one version of a translated and debated verse, yet ignore and deny Jesus' very own words, clearly translated in all versions the same, about the Father being the only true God. Nothing like placing the doctrine way above the words of the founder and Messiah, right?

Your continued attacks and slurs on everyone who disagrees with you does little for the debate other than show your own desparation. Nowhere have I claimed to be any authority or scholar, Greek or otherwise, just someone who has spent a good portion of his life actually seeking and finding answers, not blindly folowing the doctrines of men. Your desparate clinging to an outdated version of the Bible with vague and complicated language shows where your heart really is and it isn't with truth. You have not shown the slightest inkling of having the concept of love that Jesus taught and that he COMMANDED all to show. Yet, I am to come running to embrace your view? Sorry, ain't gonna happen.

It is religious bigots as you that are responsible for so many fleeing religion and God by the droves. Instead of spewing your hatred of any who dare feel different than you, try learning the concept of love Jesus taught. Then, and only then, you might actually be saved.

Lew W

The Trinity

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