by meadow77 740 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Hi Gumby,
You said:
Why don't you guys just meet up somewhere and just kick the living shit out of each other.....you LOVING Christians.Your pathetic!
You know I completely agree with you.
If anyone who is interested in Christianity or the Bible reads this Thread, I think it will totally scare them away.
I think if Jesus showed up in this Thread, He would grab an Electronic Whip and Drive us all away!
Herk, I am personally requesting you stop posting these rediculous cartoons. For someone who can't refute the doctrine of the Trinity, you sure do a lot of mocking.
Can you refute Isaiah 9:6? Or this passage in John 14? No, of course not. You really should wise up.
Herk said:
That is a ridiculous statement, on the face of it. George Washington was also not the True God nor the False God, for example, but so what?
That's interesting, I didn't know George Washington was a god!
George Washington was not a True God or False God because he was NO GOD AT ALL.
Did Washington ever claim to be a god?
Did anyone else ever claim that Washington was a god?
See my point.
Was Washington ever called The Mighty God?
Let's see, what else did Herk say today?
The Word is God, but actually The Word is "a god".That is a JW teaching, but it isn't the belief of most biblical unitarians.
Wait a minute here. You have said before that Jesus was not THE TRUE GOD, and that Jesus was not a false god, but with that statement directly above, you just said that it is NOT the belief of most biblical unitarians that Jesus is a god!
So, now you have said that Jesus is not the True God. Jesus is not a false god. Jesus is not a god.
"The Word is the Mighty God, but not the Almighty God, but even if the Word is the Almighty God, the Word is not the Supreme Being."Are you for real? Do you really believe you're being totally sincere with a statement like that? You seem to thrive on deliberately and dishonestly twisting the facts.
Just what do YOU mean? I'm deliberately twisting facts by saying that unitarians believe that the Word is the Mighty God but not Almighty God? Please elaborate.
The Father commands that all angels WORSHIP the Word.The "worship" (proskuneo) given to Christ is the same as that which is given to humans. (Hebrews 1:6; Matthew 18:26; Revelation 3:9) Christ is never given the "worship" (latreuo) that only God receives. (Matthew 4:10)
Well, proskuneo worship was given to an angel by John in Revelation, and the angel told John to STOP because only God should receive it!
When Satan tempted Jesus, what did Satan ask Jesus for? -- Proskuneo worship!
Matthew 4:8: Again, the Devil took Him to an exceedingly high mountain, and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world, and their glory.
Matthew 4:9: He said to Him, "I will give You all of these things, if You will fall down and worship [proskuneo] me."
Matthew 4:10: Then Jesus said to him, "Get behind Me, Satan! For it is written, 'You shall worship [proskuneo] the Lord your God, and Him only shall you serve [latreuo].'"
Why didn't Satan ask Jesus for latreuo worship?
When Cornelius gave proskuneo worship to Peter, Peter told him to STOP IT because he was only a human!
Acts 10:25: When it happened that Peter entered, Cornelius met him, fell down at his feet, and worshiped [proskuneo] him.
Acts 10:26: But Peter raised him up, saying, "Stand up! I myself am also a man."
Yes, the word "proskuneo" can simply mean to honor someone -- it all depends on the context and who is receiving the proskuneo worship.
I looked it up and proskuneo worship is only mentioned as being given to humans or holy angels around 5 times in the New Testament, and 3 of those times the person who was giving the proskuneo worship was reproved!
They obviously would not have been reproved if the proskuneo worship they were giving was simply honor.
However, in Revelation 3:9, proskuneo worship must simply mean that they were giving honor to the Church, otherwise it would contradict the rest of the Scriptures, either that, or it means that they would come and give proskuneo worship to God in the presence of the Church "before their feet."
In Matthew 18:26 the proskuneo worship must also simply be showing honor, or it would contradict the Scriptures. Also, the Latin Vulgate reads "Entreated him" instead of "Worshiped him".
To simply state that proskuneo is always the same worship as humans receive is WRONG as shown above.
As I showed above, there is obviously TWO different types of proskuneo worship -- One type that ONLY God should receive and another that simply means giving honor.
"The Word says that everyone should honor the Word just the same as they honor the Father."Jesus said, "all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father." That does not mean that the Son is to be honoured EQUALLY as the Father is honoured. You completely disregard the way "even as" is used in other passages. For example, "My own know me, even as the Father knows me and I know the Father." (John 10:14) To be consistent, you would have to say that Christians know Christ no less than the Father does. According to your definition of "even as," Christians know everything about Christ just as much as the infinite mind of the Father knows Christ.
I would love to see you explain what John 5:23 actually means.
The Greek word for "even as" in John 5:23 is kathōs (καθώς; Strong's Number G2531).
What does this word mean?
Thayer Greek Word Bible Dictionary says:
1) according as
1a) just as, even as
1b) in proportion as, in the degree that
2) since, seeing that, agreeably to the fact that
3) when, after that
Jesus said: "I know My own, and I'm known by My own",
Then He said: "even as the Father knows Me, and I know the Father".
Jesus was showing that His followers would be able to know Jesus and that Jesus would know His followers.
Then Jesus said that this would be "just like" (even as) The Father and the Son know each other -- a mutual knowledge of each other.
Jesus did not say "I'm known by My own even as ("just like") I'm known by the Father" -- if He had said that, then it would have meant that His followers would know everything about Jesus.
Jesus was showing the similarity of the Father and the Son having mutual knowledge of each other, and His followers and Himself having mutual knowledge of each other, NOT the amount of knowledge.
You also ignore Jesus' prayer to the Father that his disciples "may be one even as we are." (John 17:11) He also asked "that they may all be one; even as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us." To be "in" God and to be "one" in the Trinitarian sense, Christians would necessarily have to be part of God. But, blindly, Trinitarians insist that being "one" means one thing in John 10 and something else in John 17.
I see no problem really. The Father and the Son and Christians are all in union as "One Body" right?
"But yet, whenever the Word is worshiped, it's not the same worship that the Father gets (even though the Greek word is the same)."As shown above, this is a deliberate and deceptive lie, nothing less.
As I have proven above, it most certainly was not a lie.
"Even though it says in Revelation Chapter 5, that the Father and the Word are receiving the exact same praise, honor, and glory, it's still only the Father being worshiped.""Praise, honor, and glory" are not the same as "worship." Men, especially in the age to come, receive praise, honor and glory, but that does not make them Almighty God. And, of course, you know that here, too, you are deliberately lying and attempting to deceive. We've already discussed Revelation 5 together, but you reject the context in preference to your own personal opinion.
Hmmm, well just exactly what does the Greek word "proskuneo" mean, which you claim was only directed towards the Father in Revelation Chapter 5?
Thayer's:
"kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication"
Strong's:
"prostrate oneself in homage (do reverence to, adore)".
It's interesting that up above, you said that "proskuneo" is the type of worship that is given to humans, but now you say that Praise, Honor, and Glory that is given to Humans is NOT the same as the proskuneo that is given to God.
Read above and you will see that are TWO different types of proskuneo worship.
Anyway, my point was the Father and the Word receive EQUAL Honor, Glory, and Praise, yet, in the Old Testament YAHWEH said that He would NOT share His glory with ANYONE else.
And, if the Word is supposed to be worshiped, that means you are worshiping a created being, which is blatent idolatry, but it's okay, because the Word is a "Special Created Being".This is another gross distortion of what the Bible says, as shown above. You invented the phrase "Special Created Being," but by using quotation marks and capital letters, you seek deceptively to make it appear that this is unitarian terminology.
I did not make this up, it is most certainly what the JW's at one time believed, and they are unitarians. Also, I believe JosephMalik (or someone else on this Website) told me something very similar before.
Just because YOU don't believe in it does not mean that other unitarians don't, however much you want to believe that everyone should believe the same as you.
The Word was created by the Father, even though John 1:3 says that there has never been one thing that was not created by the Word, so the obvious answer is that the Word created Himself! Now it all makes sense!Here is another gross distortion of what most biblical unitarians believe. You appear clever in your own mind, but only an outlandish fool would dare to so distort the facts and at the same time think that he is wise.
Where have I said I was wise?
Well, I noticed that you blurted out a whole lot of Ad Hominem but I didn't see any actual refutation to my comment.
The Bible says the Word created all things, but He actually only created people.Most biblical unitarians would deny such a teaching, showing that you have no idea what unitarian beliefs really are.
Oh yeah, well that is exactly what JosephMalik has been saying throughout this whole Thread, so obviously you haven't been reading his posts, or you would know why I said that.
The Father made a big point of calling the Word "Immanuel" which means "GOD WITH US", but that has no significance.The angel did not say Jesus would be God with us. He said Jesus would be NAMED "God with us." There is a big difference. Sadly, to that fact you are also totally blind because you feel the need for every little piece of evidence that might vindicate your pagan philosophy.
Same difference -- Why was the NAME "God With Us" given BY THE FATHER to the SON?
WHY does Matthew make a point of telling everyone what Immanuel means? How many other Names or Titles does Matthew explain? Why did he think it was so important to explain what Immanuel means?
The Apostle Thomas declared that the Word is The God, but since the Apostle Peter was not the one who said it, it's not true.This is another example of dishonesty and insincerity, a deliberate effort to distort the true picture of what unitarians in this thread have actually said.
I stated basically what you had told me before in this Thread. You were going to believe Peter over Thomas.
But, that is not true, because the Father actually used the Word to create other things for Him, even though the Word is a creature.That is a teaching of JWs, but it is not what all unitarians believe, by a long shot.
Exactly what do you believe about Creation?
Did Yahweh create all things ALONE like He says He did?
Then how do you explain John 1:3, Colossians 1, and Hebrews 1?
When the Pharisees accused the Word of Blasphemy, it was because they thought He was lying about being the Christ. It was NOT because they thought He was lying about being God (even though "Blasphemy" is either Speaking Against GOD, or Making yourself EQUAL to GOD).Here again, you ignore the Bible definition, and invent one of your own.
What do the Scriptures say?
Every time the Pharisees accuse Jesus of Blasphemy, they explain the definition:
Mark 2:5: Jesus, seeing their faith, said to the paralytic, "Son, your sins are forgiven you."
Mark 2:6: But there were some of the Scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts,
Mark 2:7: "Why does this Man speak blasphemies like that? Who can forgive sins but God alone?" (See Micah 7:18 and Isaiah 43:25)
John 10:30: "I and the Father are One."
John 10:33: The Jews answered Him, "We don't stone You for a good work, but for blasphemy: because You, being a Man, make Yourself God."
The Father calls the Word God in Hebrews Chapter 1, but that doesn't mean that the Word is God, just because it doesn't!Your error here is again due to totally disregarding what the Scriptures say by way of explanation. You don't have to be a unitarian to realize that Jesus was God in the same sense that the kings of Israel were God. Angels were also called Jehovah very often. Using your false logic, each angel would also have to be Almighty God.
First of all, you said that Psalm 45 is about a Human King (which would have been Solomon).
So, the following Verses are about Solomon, who later became an "Apostate" of God:
Psalm 45:2: You are the most excellent of the sons of men. Grace has anointed your lips, Therefore God has blessed you forever.
Psalm 45:6: Your throne, God, is forever and ever. A scepter of equity is the scepter of your kingdom.
Psalm 45:17: I will make your name to be remembered in all generations. Therefore the peoples shall give you thanks forever and ever.
Yeah, suuuuuuurrrrrreeeee.
It is soooooooooooooooooooooo obvious that those Verses are directed to Solomon! Why didn't I see it before?
UnDisfellowshipped, pardon me for saying so, but the truth is, you don't know how to be truthful. There's no point in my continuing to go through this ridiculour post. To say such stupid things about unitarians is a clear illustration that you have no love for truth at all. You simply seek to distort, lie, and deceive. The more you write, the more you continue to expose for all to see how dishonest and corrupt Trinitarians really are.
Same to you.
I am sorry that you think that everyone who doesn't agree with you is a deliberate liar.
Edited by - UnDisfellowshipped on 6 December 2002 3:59:39
Edited by - UnDisfellowshipped on 6 December 2002 4:3:57
Herk and others, you make a good case. I don't believe that Jesus is God nor part of the Trinity nor any of that. Thanks.
Herk wins the argument
But I am so glad I left all this debating stuff........
AY curramba
The saddest part of all about this thread is that Jesus himself refuted the trinity, before it was even formulated 400 years after his death. Today, some pig headed trintiarians discard his very words in order to further their worship of Platoism.
25 pages later, we see the same pig headed fool still ranting on that his view has not yet been refuted. Well, there are no so blind as those who will not see.
Since Jesus taught love and not blind adherence to a man made doctrine and that same pig headed fool has alienated every single person he sought to convert, I think we can see where the love Jesus spoke of isn't.
SwedishChef, thank you for reaffirming my feelings and decision to never set foot in any church again.
I now return you to your regularly scheduled endless bickering and arguing over absolutely nothing!
Lew W
I think it would be a good idea to post some Scriptures that might (hopefully) calm everyone down, and reflect on what is most important about being a follower of Christ, like Lew was saying:
Matthew 5:43: "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor, and hate your enemy.'
Matthew 5:44: But I tell you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who mistreat you and persecute you,
Matthew 5:45: that you may be children of your Father who is in Heaven. For He makes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the just and the unjust.
Matthew 5:46: For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Don't even the tax collectors do the same?
Matthew 5:47: If you only greet your friends, what more do you do than others? Don't even the tax collectors do the same?
Matthew 5:48: Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in Heaven is perfect.
Matthew 22:36: "Teacher, which is the Greatest Commandment in the Law?"
Matthew 22:37: Jesus said to him, "'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.'
Matthew 22:38: This is the First and Great Commandment.
Matthew 22:39: A second likewise is this, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.'
Matthew 22:40: The whole Law and the Prophets depend on these Two Commandments."
John 3:16: For God loved the world so much that He gave His Only-Begotten Son in order that everyone who believes in Him may have eternal life.
Edited by - UnDisfellowshipped on 6 December 2002 6:36:33
UnDisfellowshipped,
Your statement contains some irony:
I think if Jesus showed up in this Thread, He would grab an Electronic Whip and Drive us all away!
It was good of you to include yourself. However, why the condemnation of everybody? What is ironic is that you cited Jesus' use of a whip. Doesn't that show that he too got forceful when dealing with persons who rejected the Scriptures in favor of tradition?
There's nothing wrong in exposing error and and those who teach it for what they are, namely, false teachers. Either one side is right and the other is wrong in this discussion, or both sides are wrong. Both sides seem to have the Scriptures on their side, though I think it's becoming more and more apparent which side is following them and which side is twisting and contorting them. The side that uses the Bible improperly ought to be exposed and ridiculed!
Bible truth has endured corruption for centuries. Jesus warned that there would be false prophets and false teachers. False doctrines like Purgatory took hold upon the church as the Dark Ages began to creep over Europe. Truth seekers have been diligent to expose these, even in many cases at the expense of their lives. But some confusion continues to linger as the simple truths of the Bible sparkle ever brighter. The question still remains, for example, about the Trinity, whether it is a Christian or pagan doctrine. Strenuous efforts still need to be made to show that scriptural statements are clear in themselves and don't need the interpretations of imperfect men.
Meanwhile, whether Trinitarian or non-Trinitarian, we have the special privilege of a personal walk with the Master, to be faithful unto death. Only then do we have the hope of a crown of life divine, including immortality. Only then will we have the honor of reigning with Christ in glory. Only then will we be honored to assist our master in delivering the whole world out of bondage, and into faith, until "the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea." (Revelation 2:10; 20:6; Isaiah 11:9) Whether our belief is that Jesus is God or the Son of God, we speak the truth when we say "Hallelujah, What a Savior!"
fjtoth
Edited by - fjtoth on 6 December 2002 8:11:18
