AGuest,
Greetings and the greatest of peace to you, too!
can you define what perfection is for you?
For me... hmmmm... well, let's see:
From a spiritual standpoint -
1. Love, without hypocrisy
2. Truth, absent malice
3. Acceptance, by means of mercy and forgiveness
From a standpoint the physical body -
Well, I would, of course, want the end of sickness, pain, death, mourning, outcry, etc., for all flesh... but flesh as we know it now... physical flesh... does not exist in this manner. ALL flesh... as we know it... contains such things. Is rather quite full of it. My understanding, however, is that it is the PUTTING OFF of flesh... with its blood... and putting ON the spirit body... that will result in such things, because "the flesh is of no use at all."
With regard to physical universe, however, the earth, etc., these things already exist in "perfection" in that they are and do the very things they were created to do.
it sounds to me as if you would for instance consider earthquakes and vulcano erruptions as something imperfect?! is that true?
Imperfect?! I am not sure how you got that from my comments. I mean, I thought I said that the universe and earth were perfect... but it is the "world" that consists of the biosphere that is imperfect. In truth, due to earthling man, all of the 'spheres have problems: the lithosphere (due to man's depletion of the soil), hydrosphere (due to man's pollution of the water); troposphere (due to man's pollution of the air); stratosphere (due to man's depletion of the ozone layer).
But elsewhere in the physical universe, everything is pretty much as it should be. Should we assume that because "life" does not exist everywhere, such places are not "perfect"? But who says that "life" is necessary... versus such lack of life being necessary to keep the balance?
right now sometimes new things form from the death of a star...but that will not continue indefinitely. in the end everything will die and there will be no more live in this universe. it will be a dead cold universe...
I am not sure that I... or science... agree with you. Rather than give you my thoughts, I will ask yours... why you believe that "in the end everything will die... it will be dead cold." I would like to respond to that, but I want to be sure I am understanding why you say what you do.
the universal constants will most likely still be constant but does that by itself make the universe perfect? does simple predictability make something perfect?
I think so. The earth "hangs" where it does... and we know that... so that we can predict where it will be at any given time in its rotation... so that we know on what day... and at what time... the seasons start. We know of its revolution, so that we can know years in advance at what time the sun will rise... and set. To me, such predictability... is perfect.
It is the same with God, which is how I can "stand in the gap" with regard to the false accusations made against Him: HE... does not change. It is we... imperfect man... who is always... "flakey".
i assume you view humans as something special...
Yes... and no. Humans have the POTENTIAL to be special... higher than angels, even. As we are now, however, I am as many times ashamed of us... as I am proud.
if so how can you view the design of our solar system as perfect if it is certain that our sun will eventually evolve into a dwarf star killing all live on this planet during the process?
Well, I COULD say that "a lot can happen in 5 billion years," but instead, I will refer you to Revelation 21:23, which says, "And the city has NO NEED of the sun nor the moon to shine upon it, for the glory of God lighted it up, and its lamp was the Lamb."
Now, I know that might sound a little far out there to you, but... I have SEEN that glory. And let me tell you, the sun doesn't even come close. For it is that glory that "energized" the very sun we are warmed by. All matter, dear one... is energy. And all of that energy... started somewhere. I have seen where... and the ONLY 'light' there originates from the throne. Truly. Everything else there is illuminated by it, just as the moon is illuminated by the sun. The moon itself has no light, but only reflects the sun's light. In the spirit realm, there is no Light... other than the glory of God... which light is "reflected" by the Son. It's a truly WONDERFUL phenomenon to behold. Truly.
the billions is not off....you probably refer to the first multicellular organism....the first procaryotes are however some 3 billion years old.
Okay, blue-green algae, yes, you are correct. I apologize, because I did think we were talking about, well, okay, "multicellular organisms" - plants, fish, etc.
why does something have to die in order for new things to form? it is easy to imagine life drawing its energy from inorganic material or solar energy. it is not necessary in principle for something to die in order to create new life.
True, scientists created amino acids and a DNA... from chemosynthesis. But doesn't that also make it "easy" to understand how, through God "in the beginning" came about? Something... from supposedly nothing? But... in THIS world... there can't be life... if there is no death. The nutrients in the soil are from dead things... plants get their "food" from these dead things... we/animals eat plants, which, when reaped... are dead... and we eat animals... when they are dead. All of this... to sustain life.
how is earth less perfect than lets say the moon, jupiter or the sun?
Please see my comments on the various 'spheres, above. Neither the moon, Jupiter nor the sun... nor any other planet, star, asteroid, comet, interstellar piece of matter, etc., has such... ummmm... "pollution".
No, they did not alter the universe constantslaws or perfections which is what I thought we were speaking about. However, is has indeed altered those perfections with regard to where WE are... the earth/world we live in.
how so?
I'm a-thinkin' I answered that already, above...
well the point is...in a perfect universe there would be no suffering (right?).
Is there suffering anywhere else in the universe... other than here on earth? And just how much of the universe does earth make up?
the universe we live in will always cause suffering...hence it cannot be perfect.
I can't say that I agree with that... because suffering is limited to the earth... and those who dwell on it.
how then is it possible that animals had viruses and bacteria long before the first human was born?
Why would it not be possible? But animal viruses/bacteria are not necessarily "friendly" to humans... right? And vice versus?
how is it possible that we rely on bacteria in our gut in order to survive?
All bacteria is not "bad", dear one. There is bacteria that, for us... is perfect. Yes? We NEED it. Yes? I am not sure how you are going where you are, based on my comments. But...
how exactly do you invision that microorganism came into existance?
(Methinks that if I say, "created by God as part of the entire microcosm of "perfectly balanced" life... down to the smallest particle, the smallest "dying" so that larger life forms can live" you would scoff... but, that's what I would say...)
many diseases could be cured or better kept under control. the problem is the production of such drugs is not cost free.
And why is that, pray tell?
the pharma industry spends billions on the production of new drugs. in an perfect world they could just give them away....
In THIS world they could just give them away... but no one would make any money if they did, would they? The farmer who grows the... ummmm... plants for the extract... the chemist who combines the compounds... ummmm... the plastic/glass maker for packaging... the government needs it taxes... the advertising companies need their cut... yada, yada, yada...
Is it the world that's imperfect... or the people in it?
but since the universe is not perfect and we all have to live from something they cannot distribute the medication for free.
They can... they won't. No profit in it. And it is, after all... all about the profit, isn't it?
so adam and eve had these need? or did they live from air and water?
Adam and Eve were given vegetation as food. However, they LIVED... by means of the Tree of Life. Gen. 3:23.
how about brain insuries? they alter the personality...do they alter the spirit too?
I don't think so: the spirit is not "driven" by the brain... but by the heart (and not the organ... but the "seat of one's motivation"... the TRUE man inside. Depression and illness can alter a person's perspective, true, as can many other things... but, they are still who they are... even if they are many. Even multiple personalities can be integrated and beneath it all... there is one person.
You now state, in response to my comment:
what exactly does that mean? is this a braod hint that JAH is gonna kill me because i can't see him???
And my comment was:
(Smiling) Again, you accuse the wrong one. True, I cannot prove it to you, now because you do not have eyes to see and ears to hear what exists beyond the physical world, the world of flesh... with its blood. But the legal trial is not yet over, and fortunately, while there are all kinds of witnesses AGAINST my Father and my Lord there are a few of us character witnesses who still believe in standing up for our wrongly accused loved ones even if the odds and circumstances seem overwhelming.
and... for the LIFE of me, I cannot see how you got "is this a braod hint that JAH is gonna kill me because i can't see him???" out of it. NOT AT ALL... I meant NO such thing. My Father is NOT like that! Nor is He one that derives any amount of joy out of watching what WE do to one another. That was the very point of my response to this thread in the first place. Anybody killing anybody, for any reason, never even came up... in my comment... or in my thought. May I humbly ask you to go back and read a thread or two where I was permitted to share with you just who does what and when? Thank you. Or, I am kinda tired right now, but if you will give me a minute, I'll find you one.
In the meantime, again, the greatest of peace to you!
YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,
SJ
