Where is God?

by donkey 83 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

Realist

well these books (all written by the same god?) haven't had much influence over the last 5000 years.
how about he just shows up and tells us personally what he wants instead of letting us read this crap (=bible, koran, thora or whatever)?
AGuest

Greetings, all... and peace to you!
I know there are most probably some who are wondering, "why not let this post die"? My answer to that would be, first, that there are some valid points/questions raised, and I think it would be quite rude to ignore them. I have learned that no matter the "tone", including ridicule, most people make the statements/ask the questions they do... because they DON'T know/understand... and truly want to. My second response would be that I have no fear of providing those who "demand" it... a reason for my hope. Whether they can "hear" that reason or not... is beyond my control.
Before I continue, however, I would like to make a request for concession, as well as point out some very "true" arguments that seem to have been overlooked. The request first:
1. In responding to those that I do, I try to give the benefit of the doubt by:
a. Reading the ENTIRE posts of such one, BEFORE responding; and
b. Responding to each issue raised, most times very explicitly. Why? Because I think that most folks are like me: they put a lot of thought into their posts, into the questions they raise, and they want/deserve straightforward, honest answers. So, I try to "do unto"... as I would have done unto me.
In that light, I would like to ask the same consideration, that if you deign to respond to what I have been permitted to share, please:
a. Stick to the facts and respond to what I posted, versus what you perceive me to have posted, thought or believe (and if you are unsure, please... go back and reread);
b. Do not put words in my "mouth" or thoughts in my "head"... that do not exist; and
c. Do not assume me to be a JW, a supporter of the WTBTS... or of any religion, for that matter. If you want to know what I believe, rather than falsely accuse me... please... read my posts. All you need do in click on "members" above... find the "A"... go to Page 2... find "AGuest"... and... viola! What I know, believe, have seen and heard... is all there... for all to see.
Now, with that said, I would like to make the following arguments, before moving on to responding to the comments directed to me:
1. Assuming, as some have stated, that God is imperfect, because if He were perfect, then what He created would be/act in perfection, and since man and the world is imperfect, and God "made" man and the world, God then is also imperfect, but man cannot be held accountable for his actions because he is imperfect, I would argue that, based on such: a. Man cannot be held accountable for his actions/inactions, because man is imperfect b. Imperfect beings cannot be held responsible for their actions/inactions; b. God is imperfect; c. God cannot be responsible for His actions/inactions... because He is imperfect; d. All are imperfect, thus, no one can be held accountable e. No one is liable f. God, therefore, is not liable
2. Alternatively, assuming: a. God is perfect a. Imperfection cannot come out of perfection b. Man is imperfect c. Imperfect man did not come out of God d. God is not responsible for making imperfect man e. God, therefore, God is not liable
This second argument will most like be countered with, "But God made man". I would have to ask those who make that assertion:
First, how do you know that? If your answer is, "The Bible tells us...", then you would also have to acknowledge that "the Bible" that tells us that God created man, also tells us that God did not create man "imperfect", but states that that man's defect "was his own," meaning... imperfection was not something man received from God. Again, then, God would not be liable.
(It might be worthy to note here, exactly what IS said about man that God created: there was only one. We, mankind, were not made "in God's image". Only ONE man, Adam... was made in God's image... thus, perfect. That man, Adam... made US: we bear the "image" of Adam... AFTER sin was "founded" in him. For those who would dispute this, the very writings that said God created man/Adam so that Adam bore the image of God... ALSO says that we "have borne the image..." of Adam. What you see manifest in man TODAY... is that which came from ADAM... starting... with Cain. 1 Corinthians 15:49; 1 John 3:9-12)
Alternatively, if your assertion is that "there IS no God"... I would argue how then can you blame that which does not exist?
And if there IS a God, how is it that you know of Him... and if you believe that "source", whatever it may be, with regard to existence of God, how can dismiss what that source also says about what God's part in creating man... and man's part in what he is now... as well as that source's assertion that God is not liable, but rather man is?
My point? If there is no God, you cannot blame "him". That which does not exist, cannot be responsible. If you believe there IS a God, then you must also look to the source from which you take your belief... whatever it may be... so as to know what He created... and what He didn't. My source... is not and was not the Bible. True, the WTBTS and Bible tried to teach me about "God", but they could not help me KNOW Him. However, it is by means of Christ that I have come to KNOW God... see and hear Him... so that I can stand on my assertion... that He is, in truth, innocent of the accusations made against Him here.
Now, to address the thread, if you will permit me. Please note: I will not requote myself. Please refer to the previous posts if you get lost/confused. Thank you.
hello Aguest,
Greetings to you again, dear Realist... and the greatest of peace to you!
again i have to ask you what you consider perfect?
And I would refer you to my response in my previous post. You asked; I answered. Truly.
What would constitute a perfect atmosphere for you?
For the physical flesh... one that contains just the right amounts of elements to sustain that flesh... healthily. For the spiritual flesh, the spirit body... there is no need of atmosphere.
do you consider the environmental conditions perfect that caused the dinosaurs to get extinct?
Depends on the purpose for the extinction. If such allowed another life form to come into existence... and God's desire was for another life form to come into existence... I would have to say, "yes". If that was the "plan"... absolutely. Now, it may not have been MY plan... but I am not the architect here; my plans would never have been in the running.
do you consider the atmospheric pollution caused by a volcano erruption as ok while you consider the pollution by a powerplant as something bad?
I would have to say that anything "naturally" occurring... is perfect. It is doing what it was designed to do. Volcano eruption, just like earthquakes... are part of the earth's recycling process.
You know, the whole "plate tectonics" thing where: the earth's plates move on the mantle/asthenosphere... which movement causes stress, which results in strain, which results in elastic rebound or... earthquakes... AND... the crust on oceanic plates is subducted under continental plates... which causes plutonism in which igneous rock is melted... which creates magma (underground)... which, when subjected to volcanism makes mafic lava flows, or felsic ash cones, yada, yada, yada... which makes mountains... the tops of which are sheered off by weathering... after which the resultant soils/alluvium are mass wasted, eroded and transported by streams/rivers... to be deposited into the oceans... where it settles on the ocean floor/crust... which is subducted... yada, yada, yada... unless we're talking about ocean ridge volcanos/earthquakes... which is another process, entirely...
how about radioactivity?
Well, since there's radioactivity in practically everything, including the very water we drink (although some "older" water has less)... I would have to say that it's not "bad"; certainly not imperfect.
do you view the natural uranium radioactivity as something good while the radioactivity gathered by humans is something bad?
Actually, no. Now, what humans DO with the radioactivity they "gather"... is another story. Radioactivity occurs naturally. Much like... vegetation. But we tend to like to "process" stuff... adapt it to US... rather than adapt us to IT... which changes/alters is properties, purposes, etc., to our own detriment.
how about dangerous damaging radiation from the sun or supernovae in relative proximity to our solar system?
Regarding my statement about my thoughts and why you believe that "in the end everything will die... it will be dead cold", you said:
science agrees with me...i don't know if you do!? :-))

Actually, I can't say that I do. Why? Because science... changes its mind from time to time. The WTBTS isn't the only group that gets "new light". Science is based on hypothesis and theory... with most scientists not trying to prove something IS... but that something ISN'T. Someone makes a claim... and while such one might be trying to work on why their claim is valid... thousands more are working on why it isn't. Yes? "The earth is flat... the sun revolves around the earth... the earth is the center of the universe... Pluto is a star... an asteroid... a moon... there IS life on Mars... uh, well, there was... there MIGHT have been... well, okay, on Venus, then..."
there are only two possible outcomes of this universe...a) it will collaps and everything will end up in one singularity...hence everything is dead OR b) the universe will expand indefinitly...in this case due to the inherent nature of energy (2nd law of thermodynamics) everyting will end up at the same temperature...everything will be at the most stable configuration...there will be no driving force for chemical reactions anymore...hence life is impossible since we need energy from somewhere. it is the inevitable fate of this universe.
Actually, there are three: the universe is expanding, true. Actually, it is more or less "unfolding", even unfurling. I ask you to consider the possibility that there is One who is unfurling it, who will, at some point, roll it back up again. How so? Think... breathing. Exhale... inhale. So that all of what started at ONE point... will eventually RETURN to that one point... when God is IN all... and all things to all. That's how it started; that's how it will end.
a computer or a clock and many other things also do very predictably what we expect them to do...nevertheless they are far from being perfect. predictability is not the distinguishing sign for perfection.
Again, I am not sure I can agree... or disagree... with you. I think it depends on the source of predictability. A computer... is made by man, who is imperfect, and so it subject to imperfection. As is a clock. There also things like batteries and electricity. Both things can effect the predictability of these items. So, while I would say that a GOOD clock and a GOOD computer are CLOSE to perfect... because they can be counted on greatly for some mearsure of predictability. But not completely. Yet, we know... can predict... save a Tsunami, the ocean isn't going to come any farther than such and such... the sun is going to rise here, at this time... and set there, at that time. Weather, for example, is not predictable... but it does what it needs to do. True, it is sometimes detrimental to us... depending on where we've chosen to habitate... but it's GREAT for the earth, in general. That's why its shape remains constant: water and weather.
Next, in response to your concern about the sun in 5 billion years, I referred you to Revelation 21:23, to which you responded:
i am sorry but i have no idea what you mean.
exactly...thats one reason why this world is not perfect. and its not just because of human influencing the biosphere...the chemical/physical laws and not human activity make this world imperfect.
how do you define pollution?

what exactly was the function of the 'tree of life'?

"He"... was... and is... the means for sustaining life... the spirit which does not die... eternally. Just as the flesh must eat to live, so, too, spirits must eat to live eternally. The flesh dies; the spirit... must be destroyed, but can only be destroyed if it is weakened. It become weak... when it cannot "feed" from the Tree of Life. As long as a spirit eats from the Tree of Life... it will live... eternally. Genesis 3:23 Psalm 78:25 John 6:48, 49 1 Corinthians 10:1-4 John 14:6 John 15:1 Isaiah 11:10 Zechariah 3:8 John 6:51, 54, 55 Revelation 22:2 (Note: the original wording spoke of ONE Tree, not "trees")
sorry i misunderstood you!...as a non native speaker your philosophical style is sometimes a little hard to understand for me.
This is JW.com, dear Realist. Most folks here are former JW's and have come out of the WTBTS. I am one of them. That makes me a "native". And speaking as a "native", I can tell you that most of these folks have a GOOD "idea" of what I'm talking about.
have a good one,
You, too, of course... and again, peace to you!
YOUR servant and slave of Christ,
SJ
AGuest

And now, dear JT... peace to you... and I will try to respond to you... briefly. But don't hold it against me if I get wordy. Again, I won't requote myself, but refer you above. Thank you.
now this has got to be the weakest argument ever stated by a believer-

Nahh, I've heard some weaker ones... WAY weaker... and I believe my argument has merit. I am learning, however, that one way folks "argue" is to make the statement "now this has got to be the weakest argument ever stated," as a smoke screen: many times such arguments are quite valid, but the mere statement is usually successful in getting less savvy folks to buy it, rather than "test" the argument themselves. Well done.
how many times have we heard the questioned asked of those in authority WHO KNEW AND WHEN
Truly, I don't know. Who do you consider to be "those in authority", who asked them... and "who knew and when" what? Let's start there, please...
Can anyone think of the fallout from this country if Dick Chaney and President Bush had infor not just RUMOR but documented evidence of what happened on Sept 11 and DID NOTHING WITH THAT INFO-
My understanding is that they did... based on 1990-91. But even if they had evidence that something was GOING to happen... even they most probably would have waited until it did... simply based on their disbelief in the true capacity for evil by man... like some here... as well as their fear of being accused of jumping the gun, which they most certainly would have been... like God.
YET EVERY single believer would roundly condemn both of them and RIGHTLY SO for sitting on that info and doing nothing when it was within thier power to do something-
If by "believer", you mean believer in God, I would have to say I disagree with you. For I am a believer in God... and I wouldn't have condemned them, not at all. Even if they knew... even if it was in their power to do something. Why? 'Cause I never know when it may be in MY "power" to do something... and I miss the call. Judge not...
yet according to thier own Dogmas their god sits on this type of "highly classified intelleigence" every single day of the week and this poster has the nerve to ask
Okay, I can see the human military thinking comin' out in you... God's thoughts are not as our thoughts, JT. It is quite unfortunately that many cannot seem to grasp that. Truly, it would solve a LOT of arguments if folks would just condescend to understand that. You, like others, want God to think like us... when it is WE... who should learn to think like Him. Ah, well...
"SHOULD SOMETHING HAVE BEEN DONE BEFORE THE CRIME IS COMMITTED-"
Well... should it have? And at what point? Conception? Birth? In the playground when little Tommy hits little Suzy in the head with a Tonka truck, so that she needs 20 stitches? But then, little Tommy was only a baby and didn't know what he was doing... so, should his mommy be punished? Maybe she shouldn't have been born so that little Tommy wouldn't have been born, so that little Suzy didn't get hit... so that her son, Jeffy didn't get beat.. so that he did grow up and later shoot his buddy Billy... and later get stabbed to death by Big Jefe in the penitentiary...
you got to love it

I guess. But then, in response to my argument about what parents of incorrigibles should so, you stated:
this is just another example of a weak argument one that ducks the real issue or question that is raised
Actually, it was a very valid set of statements and questions, but I refer you to my original comment regarding assertions of weak argument...
I always notice that when a believer tries the old argument that god is just letting you learn the hard way-
You misstate my argument. I don't believe God... or ANY parent... WANTS their child(ren) to "learn the hard way". I think that's just what occurs when God... or any parent... realized the child(ren) have no intention of listening. They are pretty much left with NO choice. It is not LETTING the child do anything; the child just IS... learning the hard way.
the implication is that the pain and suffering is inflicted ONLY ON THEMSELVES due to their actions- and that is NOT THE ISSUE the issue and question is when thier actions INFLICT PAIN AND SUFFERING ON OTHERS-
The implication is no such thing... as can one truly harm oneself WITHOUT harming others? Cain was warned of HIS anger... and that if he didn't get a grip, he was going to do something harmful. Now, Cain may have THOUGHT that only one harmed would be himself... but that didn't prove true, did it? Name one harm that one can do to oneself... that does not, ultimately... and many cases, severely... if not fatally... affect at least one other?
let's go back to the illustration above- and RE-ASK THE QUESTION:
I don't know if you know this... but 'twas me that asked that...
NOW here is the correct way to ask the question:
Okay...
Let me ask you, and you tell me: what would be the response of YOUR child if you, say, told him/her, "You know, what you're doing is going to end up KILLING YOUR BABY SISTER, IF YOU CONTINUE TO HOLD HER HEAD UNDER THE WATER IN THE TUB." Does every child LISTEN? Are there not some who simply HAVE to learn the "hard" way? Do you, then, as a parent, KEEP pushing... or do you, at some point, stand back and let that child do his or her thing?
Ahh, yes, I see. But truly, does it matter? Does the parent always know EXACTLY what harm will occur? Or do they just sometimes know that harm... WILL COME... to someone... including, perhaps, the child in question? Is the parent only concerned about the baby sister? I mean, look at the results: baby sister is dead, true. What happens, though, to brother who killed her? Does his life go on as usual? Or has his life been ruined as well?
Example: My young son is running around with, say, a pair of scissors. Now, certainly, he might trip, the scissors go flying, and baby sister is stabbed in the eye, killed. But... couldn't he just fall and stab himself? Shouldn't saying to my son, "What you're doing is going to result in bad" be sufficient? Isn't the danger undesired, no matter WHO is harmed?
Would you or any believer please do me one favore an answer your own question- In the situation listed above what would you do with the child:
1. "KEEP pushing... "
2. "or do you, at some point, stand back and let that child do his or her thing?"
I am SO glad you asked that! Thank you! IF the child was still in MY house... he/she would be subject to MY rules. Thus, I would KEEP PUSHING. However, IF the child has LEFT my house... is "on his/her own"... and is now asserting that he/she wants to do his/her own thing... what in the WORLD can I do? At SOME point... I have NO CHOICE... but to stand back. Why? Because based on his or her very denunciation of MY rules... declination to live in MY house... but choosing instead to be his OWN "keeper"... this "child" has now DECIDED... to be responsible for his or her self! Otherwise, you've got a HECK of a lot of "guilty" parents out there... going scot-free!
And the same is with God: IF the child is/was still in HIS "house"... he/she would be subject to HIS rules/covenant. And... we, Israel by spirit... are. Thus, He KEEPS PUSHING. However, IF the child has LEFT His "house"... is "on his/her own"... by means of REJECTING His Law and Covenant (of love - "you must love your neighbor as yourself")... and now asserting that he/she wants to do his/her own thing... what should GOD do? They are not HIS "children". Thus, at SOME point... He has to stand back! Why? Because based on such one's very denunciation of GOD's rules... by his/her rejection of the Law to LOVE... which is a declination to live in God's "HOUSE"... and chooses instead to be his OWN "keeper"... this "child" has now DECIDED... to be responsible for his or her self! And yet, you all fail to hold such ones accountable... and wish instead, to blame God. Sigh!
thanks

No, thank YOU... for helping me prove my point. Truly.
Peace to you!
A slave of Christ,
SJ
Realist

AGuest,
the greatest of peace to you also!
i don't believe God created us, i don't believe the bible is at all inspired and i don't blame a fantasy creature for human behavior. humans act according to instincts overlayed with a thin protective sheath of civilizational rules that allow us to function in a society...nothing more nothing less.
you have a unique perception of the world ...entirely based on faith with total absents of facts. humans kill people and the world kills people...neither one nor the other is perfect in any sense.
i think our viewpoints are too different to continue the discussion in a reasonable fashion.
hope you can keep your faith (if it makes you happy),
Realist
AGuest

Again, the greatest of peace to you, Realist...
I, too, do not believe the Bible is "inspired"... for only "scripture" is inspired (written when the author was "in spirit"...), and contrary to the believe of many and assertion of others... the Bible is not all scripture.
If it is true that "humans act according to instincts overlayed with a thin protective sheath of civilizational rules that allow us to function in a society...nothing more nothing less"... then absent such rules, anarchy would reign. However, even the remotest and uncivilized tribes have rules... or traditions... that dictate how they treat one another... and absent all of these, from whatever "society"... your statement implies we would all be "without law"... residing in a world where there no such rules. I agree with you to the extent of the majority of mankind; however, I do think that there are those who would "do by nature" the things "of... law", so that "they are a law... unto themselves." I do think we are all born "bad"... and must "learn good"... and not the other way (born good and acquire bad habits); but there were things that I... and others, perhaps even you... knew... from infancy almost... were right... and wrong. Not many of us, I am sure... but some of us.
I recently had reason to speak to friend on the subject of pedophilia, who assured me that from day one, even as a small child, knew it was "wrong". Now, of course, not ALL children "know" this (some cultures even raise their young with acceptance and expectation); but there are a few... and such ones tend to have quite a difficult time understanding why those who DON'T know... don't.
I, too, used to be that way... not understanding why some do/think what they do, until I realized that it was not *they* who were different... in comparison to mankind in general... but *me* who was. Not "better"... just different. Thus, perhaps my "unique perception of the world," and my faith, which I assure you is not "with total absence of facts" is a result of this. I believe in educating myself... with regard to most subjects (i.e., science, philosophy, language, history, sociology, math... etc.), for the VERY purpose of gaining facts. Some, though, dismiss that which I consider "reliable" as a source... simply because they are NOT educated on it, have NO knowledge of it, do not understand it... because they do not know the One who teaches it.
John 14:6, 17, 26
Rather than dismiss your position and understanding because I have no knowledge of it... I choose to learn of it, so as to at least try to know where you're coming from... know the "basis" for YOUR belief. And I do not assume it to be "total absent of facts"; I truly believe that science SUPPORTS creation... absolutely.
humans kill people and the world kills people...neither one nor the other is perfect in any sense.
Not quite: the earth kills people, true, through its natural processes. Even absent earthquakes, floods, etc., people would still age and die. That is the natural process... and is perfect. Even if such life seems to be "cut short", there was no MALICIOUS intent on the part of the earth... nor any GAIN to be realized by it... at one level or another. Humans, however, "murder" their fellowman... through hatred, hypocrisy and greed... with malicious intent... and/or for gain. That... is NOT a natural process. Even in the "Old" Law, Israel had to take care of their property and livestock so that no other human would be NEGLIGENTLY harmed. Why? "Do unto others..." and no one WANTS to lose a loved one. Thus, if such harm can be PREVENTED... it behooves us to do so. It is this... that is "imperfect"... starting with the harm that COULD have been prevented by Adam... and Cain... but wasn't.
i think our viewpoints are too different to continue the discussion in a reasonable fashion.
Perhaps. I don't necessarily see it that way... but then, I have no "fear" of learning new things... whether they support my beliefs... or not.
hope you can keep your faith (if it makes you happy),
Me, too. It does have it benefits.
Again, I bid you peace...
Your servant and a slave of Christ,
SJ
gumby

He AGREED to care for... those who exercise faith in His Son... by "doing" what that Son taught them to do... LOVE his "neighbor"... and leaving those who don't... alone.
Yes Shelby....he is quite the loving daddy isn't he? The only problem is he doesn't love ALL his kids does he? Some of his kids do not get gifts or let in on what his FAVORITE kids get in on. The favorites of your dad is you and all others who were fortunate enough to have heard the good news about Jesus and his dad .
Your dad has not let the other kids hear about him and his son very much.....just that some people believe in them.There are billions of your dads kids he doesn't talk to about his son. He lets people get murdered who try and go over there and tell them about your dad and his son. I'll bet if the kids in donkey's story would have known more about your dad and his son.....they wouldn't have had to gone through the torture.
Tell me Shelby....is your dad ever going to speak to the rest of humanity BEFORE he comes and kills everyone except you and your Christian brothers and sisters?
BTW...your dad is behind in his child support by a few trillion dollars! Those are HIS kids aren't they that are starving to death?
Edited by - Gumby on 21 December 2002 13:11:59
Realist

Hello AGuest,
ok lets continue!
lets focus on two things for the moment:
a) please name the facts that support the existance of a careing God...who interferes with human affairs and who inspired parts of the bible.
b)
Even absent earthquakes, floods, etc., people would still age and die. That is the natural process... and is perfect. Even if such life seems to be "cut short", there was no MALICIOUS intent on the part of the earth... nor any GAIN to be realized by it... at one level or another. Humans, however, "murder" their fellowman... through hatred, hypocrisy and greed... with malicious intent... and/or for gain. That... is NOT a natural process. Even in the "Old" Law, Israel had to take care of their property and livestock so that no other human would be NEGLIGENTLY harmed. Why? "Do unto others..." and no one WANTS to lose a loved one. Thus, if such harm can be PREVENTED... it behooves us to do so. It is this... that is "imperfect"... starting with the harm that COULD have been prevented by Adam... and Cain... but wasn't.
1.yes the earth doesn't gain anything if people or animals die in an earthquake a bush fire or a volcano explosion. does this make it a perfect arrangement?
2.animal gain something when they kill other animals or people. they gain food, a better position to produce offspring etc. (hence animals would be imperfect according to your definition)
3. humans act in principle like animals...again we have the highest intellectual capacity of all species on this planet...which allows us to operate in more complex societies than animals do. nevertheless are our actions in principle that of animals.
Preston

Where is God?
He's in the privy...
reubenfine

Jesus just left Chicago.........
back2dafront

Actually, MY God did intervene... on my behalf. He has... and still does. Whenever I call on Him to do so. Why? Because I am in a COVENANT where He has obligated Himself to do so! I keep my part; He keeps his. But I cannot see where you... or any others who wrongly accuse Him... show Him OBLIGATED to intervene on behalf of everyone.

Aguest,
So is it safe to conclude that from your point of view, if you believe in God and are faithful to him, he will intervene and protect you from atrocities? Jehovah the God of Israel protected his people from harm, yet I don't see Him doing so for any earthly organization professing to serve him today. There are tons of honest-hearted Christians and other denominations in existence today that profess exclusive devotion to their God, yet tragedies happen to them too. So where's the protection for believing? Where's the reward? The reward is faith in going down in the books as being righteous when it's all over? It all boils down to blind faith IMO
If you've touched on this already in previous posts, I apologize - I read the whole thing and this is the only point that stood out as being unclear....

Where is God?

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